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What's wrong with my reloads? Pic intensive.

4K views 31 replies 18 participants last post by  UofH6.8 
#1 ·
LOWER:
PSA lower with PSA LPK, ALG Defense QMS trigger w/JP lo-power springs
Magpul STR stock w/standard buffer, PRI 10rd mags

UPPER:
Ares Armor upper receiver, ARP 20” target crown barrel
Syrac Ind adjustable gas block, PSA full-auto carrier with ARP Superbolt

BRASS:
All brass was pulled non-fired (factory primers) Federal from RMR.
Sized through a Hornady New Dimension full-length die with the expander ball removed
Charges poured with a RCBS Chargemaster, with each first load in a series double-checked against my Dillon Eliminator.

BULLETS:
110gr Sierra ProHunter seconds… hand sorted purchase from Owenslee
110gr Barnes TSX
90gr Gold Dot pulls from RMR

POWDER:
AA1200R, H335, Benchmark, RL-10X

OK… my groups suck. I know the gun is capable of way more than this. All shots were off a front rest / rear sandbag and a Bushnell AR Optics 4.5-18… not the greatest scope, but overkill for 100yd test-firing. My stuff is all over the place. There are a couple of combos that work out better than others, but “general suckage” abounds. I have some chrono readings I’ll post when I get home which may help the investigation.

For the next round of testing, I’m gonna buy a couple boxes of factory something and get a good baseline. Also… way more brass prep. First off, use the expander ball and step up to magnum primers. I would have used the expander ball on my initial loads, but didn’t know you would take out the decapping pin separate from the ball on the Hornady dies. I’ve got a Wilson Case guage, so I can set the die properly… and calipers and all the other stuff to make good brass. I’m going to hand-weigh each charge on the Dillon Eliminator and do all my work on a Forster Coax vice my Dillon 550.

Any other advice… anything you guys see room for improvement?
 
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#6 ·
i will say too many types of load. work up one at a time. magnum primers a must. what was your COAL (made a big dif for me). get your headspace correct as u mentioned. can't comment on your powder choices my best luck is with h322, sub moa, and aa2200 about moa
 
#8 ·
Sam: Don't despair, you are on the right track. You definitely have a good barrel. The first step is to try a variety of bullets. Of the 3 tried so far, your rifle seems to like the 110 grain Sierra Prohunters the best. By now you should have some empty brass fired in your rifle. Carefully clean and size those, setting the shoulder back about .004 to .005" from the fired dimension.

Next step is to try several powders with the favored bullet. The two you tried, 1200R and H335, are probably not the best choices, IMO. Instead, get a pound each of H322 and A2200, along with some CCI 450 or Remington 7-1/2 primers (hot mix, hard cup). Try a ladder with each of those powders under the Prohunters, starting at 28 grains and working up slowly to no more than 29.5 grains. Load to longest OAL your mags will allow without any rubbing of the tips, usually about 2.290 to 2.295". Stop when accuracy tightens or swipes on case heads start to show up, whichever comes first. Use your chronograph to monitor velocity readings, esp the standard deviation of 10-round shot strings.

If all that doesn't pan out for you, substitute some other bullets from the chart posted here, e.g., Nosler 115 gr CCs, and repeat the ladders with H322 and A2200. Patience, persistence and attention to detail will eventually pay off. From my POV, 10 rounds into less than an inch CTC at 100 yard/meters is the gold standard. Standard deviations in the 10 to 15 fps range are quite possible with this cartridge. - CW
 
#10 ·
Cajun: Please restate your question. The Redding type S dies can be used with or without an expander ball. I recently converted to the latter option. The .300" bushing squeezes the neck down as the case enters the die, no need to expand it back up so long as neck thickness is relatively uniform. I initially thought the neck tension would be too tight without an expander, but that turned out to be not the case with my Hornady brass. - CW
 
#11 ·
For the sake of ruling it out... your scope mount/rings didn't loosen up on you, and the mount is on the receiver, not the fore end? And... you're holding consistently level, not canting the rifle?
 
#12 ·
I think the problem is you haven't tried different charge weights with the same bullet and the same powder. You have 3 different bullets with 3 different powders but only one charge weight with each. You should have 1 bullet with 1 powder with at least 3 or 4 different charge weights. You need to see which charge weight stabilizes the bullet best for that bullet/powder combination.
 
#14 ·
I tend to work with one bullet at a time, 2-3 diff powders. IMO, pulled bullets never give great accuracy. 2nds, just depends. So if you are trying out a new rifle, feed it quality products so you eliminate some variables. I also like to get a benchmark with decent factory ammo. I see some decent groups, so I doubt the rifle is suspect.
 
#16 ·
I concur with load adjustments. What I saw was several almost identical groups around 2" . It may take a full gr to close the groups but I had a rifle once that would go from 5 touching to 4 " in 1.0 gr in an 06'. Probably you're looking at a tune of the load more like .2-.4 gr up or down .
 
#18 ·
With regular dies some people will remove the expander,size the brass then reinstall the expander and push it into the case instead of pulling through. Supposedly helps runout. Since this was pulled,primemd brass I'm assuming the op removed the expander because he didn't want to deprime.
 
#19 ·
You guys are confirming my suspicions.

Scope is tight on an SWFA mount and on the receiver.

I’m using Hornady dies… I pulled the decapping pin/expander because I didn’t want to punch out the primers. I figured that since they were pulls, the necks wouldn’t need to be expanded and I could get away with just a full-length resize. I’m seeing in retrospect that this creates uneven neck tension. Combine that with some out-of-spec pulled bullets and factory primers that might not work so well with the powder I was using… it’s a good thing I’ve got an awesome barrel or who knows if I would even have hit paper.

EROD, if you look next to each group, I’ve written the charge weight for that group and the rough caliper measurement… each group on each paper increases in .5gr increments starting with the top-left group. For example, the best group I shot was 1.18” with the 110ProHunters and 29.5gr of A1200R.

OK, so for my next batch, I’ll keep it simpler. I’ll put aside the Gold Dots for now and stick with both the 110gr bullets, and two powders… A1200R and H335. I’ve been looking for H322 and A2200, but no luck locally. Magnum primers are no problem. I’ll work up loads at .2gr increments in 5shot groups and make sure I prep the shiz out of my brass.

I hit up an LGS at lunch and bought a box of the Hornady Match BTHP and a box of S&B 110gr FMJ’s… will be able to get a couple baseline groups with factory ammo and see if it’s just me that sucks.
 
#21 ·
You guys are confirming my suspicions.

Scope is tight on an SWFA mount and on the receiver.

I'm using Hornady dies… I pulled the decapping pin/expander because I didn't want to punch out the primers. I figured that since they were pulls, the necks wouldn't need to be expanded and I could get away with just a full-length resize. I'm seeing in retrospect that this creates uneven neck tension. Combine that with some out-of-spec pulled bullets and factory primers that might not work so well with the powder I was using… it's a good thing I've got an awesome barrel or who knows if I would even have hit paper.

EROD, if you look next to each group, I've written the charge weight for that group and the rough caliper measurement… each group on each paper increases in .5gr increments starting with the top-left group. For example, the best group I shot was 1.18" with the 110ProHunters and 29.5gr of A1200R.

OK, so for my next batch, I'll keep it simpler. I'll put aside the Gold Dots for now and stick with both the 110gr bullets, and two powders… A1200R and H335. I've been looking for H322 and A2200, but no luck locally. Magnum primers are no problem. I'll work up loads at .2gr increments in 5shot groups and make sure I prep the shiz out of my brass.

I hit up an LGS at lunch and bought a box of the Hornady Match BTHP and a box of S&B 110gr FMJ's… will be able to get a couple baseline groups with factory ammo and see if it's just me that sucks.
First, if you're going to resize the necks without depriming, remove the pin, but not the expander button, and lubricate the inside of the neck to avoid excessive drag. Motor Mica works, and so does One Shot spray lube. On powders, 2200 is usually the best one. Do yourself a favor and order an 8 lb jug from Powder Valley or another on line source - its cheaper and easier in the long run. 1200R will work, but be aware that it can get spiky at top end pressures. I would save that for the 90 gr. bullets, and use the H335, H322, and 2200 for the 100 gr. and heavier.
 
#23 · (Edited)
Those factory primers in the Fed brass are the GM205MAR primers that are in the XM68GD and the Fed Fusion factory ammo.
They work for me very close to the CCI450
Your not doing powder ladders to find an accuracy node and the adjusting OAL in our out to dial in accuracy for your chamber/barrel.
Because of that your getting exactly what you should be.

I have found the Gold Dot pulls to be much more accurate at 2.28.
While the Pro Hunters for me like to be in the 2.295 area.

FEDFEDFEDFEDSSASSASSASSA
110gr110gr110gr110gr110gr110gr110gr110gr
29.3gr 10x29.5gr 10x29.7gr 10x29.9gr 10x29.5gr H33530gr H33530.5gr H33531gr H335
Sierra PHSierra PHSierra PHSierra PHSierra PHSierra PHSierra PHSierra PH
No CrimpNo CrimpNo CrimpNo CrimpNo CrimpNo CrimpNo CrimpNo Crimp
OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295OAL 2.295
CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450CCI 450
.9 MOA.6 MOA.6 MOA.5 MOA.9 MOA.9 MOA.9 MOA
 
#24 ·
Thanks for the comment Yam... I really appreciate the "you're getting exactly what you should" comment... actually makes me feel better. I always have fleeting thoughts that maybe I just suck, but then somebody says something like you did and it fills me with hope. I hit 3 LGS's yesterday and no luck on magnum primers. I did manage to grab a box of S&B FMJ's and Hornady BTHP though, so I'll be able to grab a good baseline. Gonna make a trip up to Bass Pro at lunch and see if they have any primers. And thanks about the ladder/node reminder... gotta work up in smaller powder increments, taking notes.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for the comment Yam... I really appreciate the "you're getting exactly what you should" comment... actually makes me feel better. I always have fleeting thoughts that maybe I just suck, but then somebody says something like you did and it fills me with hope. I hit 3 LGS's yesterday and no luck on magnum primers. I did manage to grab a box of S&B FMJ's and Hornady BTHP though, so I'll be able to grab a 2good baseline. Gonna make a trip up to Bass Pro at lunch and see if they have any primers. And thanks about the ladder/node reminder... gotta work up in smaller powder increments, taking notes.
^^^This^^^. Take notes. Actually what I do is take pics of targets(with load info written beside groups) so I have them all together on my phone. You have the recipes and results all right there. As much as you might think you can remember things, its best to keep records. I load in charges in .3 increments, 5 shots at least, sometimes 6-7. After firing I inspect the brass them put them back in the bag it came out of so I can take a second look later before reloading them again.
 
#25 ·
Depending on where you are, there may not be any small rifle magnum primers. There are none to be had around here, in piedmont NC area. I use CCI #41 with great results and have recently bought some S&B primers from Cabela's but haven't tried them yet. You'll get it all to come together, just keep working on it. Enjoy the experimental process!
 
#26 · (Edited)
I've got a Wilson Case guage, so I can set the die properly … Any other advice… anything you guys see room for improvement?
Lots of good advise already. Wilson Case gauge will not help you set your dies properly. Most are a waste of time. They will size too short, not allow long enough bullet length for good mags, and usually don't catch a case that has not been sized correctly. Need to set your shoulder back only 0.003-0.004" for your specific chamber. Your first range session was invalid due to screwed up neck tension and your concentricity might have been out of alignment also. Surprised the groupings were that good. Hope you were breaking in your barrel and getting the copper fouling out. rifter's recommendation on powders was spot on and I'll go one farther. I was lured by 1200R's accuracy but stopped using 1200R because it is too temperature sensitive. Had 250 fps variation in avg mv over a year of range sessions with 100 ABs and absolutely no fun when it gets warm outside and you are near max pressure. When you least expect it, easy to go over max and pop or break something or just drop 300 fps - flip a coin. Use it in 90 gr bullets - maybe but not me. I cringed when I saw you were using it with 110s. (wow, am I gun shy of 1200R)
 
#28 ·
Xman, you make too much sense for my Navy training to be able to process, but I'm onboard.
No luck at Bass Pro today for H322, A2200, or any small rifle magnum primers... oh well, got a few months left until deer season.
 
#30 ·
Yup, could be way too fast... I've got some chrony readings for a few of the groups I've been meaning to post, will try tonight. I didn't gnats'ass the groups with my calipers, just went center to center of the farthest apart holes. Lots of stuff to learn here for me, hopefully others have too. I think I was in too big of a hurry to just get out shooting my new toy and took some shortcuts... not saying that this process was a waste of time, but I do just need to start over.
 
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