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I ask this here because this is the most civil forum I've found. I am not trying to 'start' something, I am trying to understand.

For the entire history of mankind, a person's gender was 'so obvious' that there wasn't really a need for an explicit legal definition. Kinda like, for a long, long time (as in, 'forever'), people thought of marriage as 'boy / girl' -- it was as natural as breathing air. "Opposites attract" ... and for good, sensible reasons. No one questioned the 'science' of it -- it just 'was'. And then when that seemingly naturally occurring arrangement started being challenged, some of us passed a law defining (well, sorta) 'marriage'. This was a lame attempt to stop it. Those laws did nothing but identify said laws as THE TARGET. And so the courts RULED the OPPOSITE, and so now we have "laws" which are affirmatively OPPOSITE of what we wanted. (I personally am against govt definitions of any _relationships_. In my belief about marriage, it is MUCH MORE than just two opposite-sex people hooking up). ....."Conservatives" certainly have their own flavor of 'political naivety'. ___(I have much harsher things to say about "liberals")

Anyway..... 'used to'.... if you had boy parts, you were 'male'; girl parts, 'female'. EVERYONE understood what that meant and no one even thought to question it -- because it 'just was' and it seemed universal. Not so much nowadays. So I have to ask ... what is:

__the exact legal definition of "male"
__"female" and
__"transgender" ??

The "rule of law" must have immutable concepts at its foundation, or it cannot be. Foundational terms have to be explicitly defined or "law" cannot build upon it. ForEVER... "male" and "female" were FOUNDATIONAL to our rule of law. It is not the ONLY foundational definition, but one very important concept (of a few -- we can probably identify 3 or 4 things which are 'foundational', things like 'property ownership' ...and 'self-defense'-ability, which is essentially no more than defending our property and our right to have it and enjoy it ... which stems from the legal right of property ownership itself!).

"Male" was easy. So was "female". I think those are still intact. But we've invented something else: "gender". Usually gender == sex, but apparently, not 100%, anymore.
Male and female have immutable scientific definitions (I thought so anyway). One does not get to arbitrarily choose "male" or "female": we are born that way. ....Like every mammal known to man and many other species.

But we seem to be able to arbitrarily 'pick' our 'gender'. Meaning, you can be a boy (with boy parts), but you can say you are a girl. The 'saying' doesn't actually change anything. It's just how that person wishes to 'identify' and BE identified (I guess for the 'validation' others' recognition provides? oh yeah ... 'forced validation' .. I guess that's really valuable...)

So anyway... what IS the legal / scientific process or definition of 'transgender'? Can one just 'pick it' one day, each day, and just say whatever, any day? How is this 'okay'?
If this 'picking of gender' is so arbitrary... then HOW CAN IT have a legal quality? HOW CAN "law" get its hands around it and deal with it? It's not a "factual" thing, it's not an observed, obvious thing... it is purely arbitrarily picked by the person, AND, it can change at the person's whim.

How the hell can a law-based society deal with this??

And... if we do not embrace the person's at-the-moment self-definition, that is somehow a violation of that person's "civil rights" ??? How can that be, when there is no empirical definition of 'transgender' in the first place? And that person can sue in court for some related violation against them. But on what grounds?

For whatever it is worth, it is a violation of the 1st Amendment to the US Constitution for any GOVT of the USA to FORCE a US Citizen to SAY ANYTHING. This political power is also expressly announced / reinforced in the 5th Amendment, even for a criminal proceeding! Which means, at the very least, that one CANNOT BE PROSECUTED for refusing to SAY a certain thing.

Lastly, if someone can arbitrarily declare their gender, and their speech is 'equal' to mine, can I then also arbitrarily declare their gender? I understand that an individual picks their own gender, but if the picking is purely arbitrary, then what makes their picking superior to mine, such that they can sue me for not picking the same option they have picked .. ?

I am mentally tortured about all this. I am supposedly the "anti-science" one...:a43:

Understand... it is 'okay' for someone to say whatever they want about themselves, as long as their saying has no legal weight upon anyone else. Or, at least, that is the Constitutional way of looking at it. Furthermore, the Constitution does not recognize 'gender' or 'sex' (largely because at the time of its writing, 'male' and 'female' were universally understood and didn't need explaining). We are either 1) Citizens, or 2) illegal non-Citizens, or 3) legal non-Citizens. The people who are politicizing their gender are tyrannical, inflicting their personal whim upon us all.

I am struggling with the arbitrariness of all this. When words don't mean things anymore (which is more than merely changing the meaning of certain words), societies which are based on law, which are defined by words, don't function very well. This would all be fascinating to watch if I could also somehow totally insulate myself from it.
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Most laws are gender neutral, applying equally to males and females and now the people who are confused. Most of the legal based stuff that includes sex is merely for identification, like a drivers license. The fact that it says male or female has no impact on validity or standards of driving, enforcement, etc.

I'm not seeing the connection you're trying to draw between the first and fifth ammendments and a person's sex.
 

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This is all another attempt by liberal assholes to further erode the moral fiber of our nation. Once there are no more morals we will go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah. Of course being people of no faith, the libtards just see it as a way of keeping power and undermining anyone or anything that believes in something other than the power of man. There is no basis in law for any of it. The 10th amendment pretty much clarifies that it is a states right to determing such things, the feds have nothing to say about it and the civil rights act of 64 does not apply because it says nothing about gender identity.
 

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I think I'll wake up tomorrow and self identify as a brain surgeon, should be in for a helluva raise.

Makes about as much sense.


Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!
 

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Obviously they are science deniers.
 

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Welcome to the end of our society and culture, which is based on Jewish and Christian principles determined before the foundation of the earth.
 

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I've heard it said that what this planet needs is a 20 foot long flying predator.

That would cut way down on the number of stupid people with nothing better to do.
 

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As someone who deals with children from all walks of life, including those poorly treated by families from a wide variety of cultural, racial, philosophical and economic backgrounds, it is disheartening to see many states and cities enacting laws criminalizing telling a child they are their birth gender/sex and helping them understand the real source of their frustration and lack of feeling accepted. These laws are also being written to protect counsellors and psychiatrists who try to convince children that they are transgender. The science clearly shows that transgender feelings are not because one is born with the wrong physiological makeup for their brain but because external factors are causing them mental anguish and their doctors, teachers and parents are telling them that it is gender confusion. Long term studies bear out that mental problems increase after reassignment surgery, even in accepting cultures.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939/
 

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as i told my daughter the other day the country has gone insane. let traitor kerry talk some of our "allies" into ceding a small portion of desert to these "identifiers" , proclaim it the nation of transgenderia and ship them off to live a life of tortured bliss.

or use it to our advantage, i've been thinking cause i'm an old white dude of declaring myself a black female and apply for all kinds of small business grants, loot the treasury and get away with it cause i'm a tortured super minority.
 

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My female dog dry humps other female dogs and my male dog humps her
 

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To over simplify it from my non-PC perspective, much of the mess can be explained with reading/understanding Romans 1:20-32. A multi-level degradation is described there. In summary, because of their unthankfulness, He gives them UP to the Uncleanness... more decline is described, He gives them UP to their Vile Affections... more decline is described, He gives them OVER to A Reprobate Mind... more decline described.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Romans-Chapter-1/
 

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I've heard it said that what this planet needs is a 20 foot long flying predator.

That would cut way down on the number of stupid people with nothing better to do.
While working in the inner city areas of San Fran, Atlanta, N.O., Chicago, DC etc.etc.etc., I have often thought the lack of natural selection and survival of fittest is the biggest obstacle to the survival of the human race, if there is a practical purpose to "Jurassic Park" it would be breeding enhanced velociraptors and releasing them in the urban areas, lions, tigers, saber tooth cats etc.. take out the lazy, stupid and assorted scum and turn them into natural fertilizer, win win.
 

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To over simplify it from my non-PC perspective, much of the mess can be explained with reading/understanding Romans 1:20-32. A multi-level degradation is described there. In summary, because of their unthankfulness, He gives them UP to the Uncleanness... more decline is described, He gives them UP to their Vile Affections... more decline is described, He gives them OVER to A Reprobate Mind... more decline described.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Romans-Chapter-1/
Yea, that is what I was trying to say but in much less eloquent words.
 

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What gets me is that this is a conversation about 2 tenths of a percent of the population. Same thing with gay marriage - 3-4% of the population. A national debate over a very very small minority of mentally unstable people.

If Johnny the lion only wants relations with Joey the lion, the lions go extinct. I dont understand how this isnt part of the conversation either.
 

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What gets me is that this is a conversation about 2 tenths of a percent of the population. Same thing with gay marriage - 3-4% of the population. A national debate over a very very small minority of mentally unstable people.

If Johnny the lion only wants relations with Joey the lion, the lions go extinct. I dont understand how this isnt part of the conversation either.
It is only a conversation because the liberal politicians are using it to further their agenda, which I believe is to destroy this country.
 

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Welcome to the end of our society and culture, which is based on Jewish and Christian principles determined before the foundation of the earth.
Let's get a little perspective here, people. Gay and lesbian people have been around for thousands and thousands of years. So have men dressing as women, pedophilia, etc. In ancient times, it was not looked down on like it is today, but then like now, those people comprised a very small percentage of the population. Less than 5% on average is the number I've seen for all of them.

So, society isn't likely to collapse because of transgender bathrooms. However, it is not the federal government's place to be dictating rules for that sort of thing. At best, its a states rights issue. In addition, it is ludicrous that 99% of the population is forced to accommodate less than 1% just to make them 'feel better'.

Seven tenths of 1% is about 2.5 million who call themselves transgender, and that covers everything from cross dressers to those who have gone all the way with gender reassignment surgery.

I'm against all this bathroom BS, but beyond that I don't care. I don't want any of it crammed down my throat, but I can say the same about a whole bunch of things these days.
 

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It is great that people here on 68F are comfortable enough to not only share but talk about things like this.

OP draws some interesting parallels and so does Rifter and a few others.... I few that this truly is a distraction or smoke screen for other things that are going on in the world. Not that I am discounting any of the people in either end of the spectrum that this "issue" exists but there certainly is more going on behind it.
 

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Summed up in three words, power and control.

You have free speech as long as you agree with what I say, so sayeth the liberals.
 
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