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Shooting at a distance with IRONS.....!!!!

3235 Views 27 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  Bubba FAL
How do you do it!!!

My Dad brother and I went to the range on Sunday and my dad and both brought our AR's. I was hitting all day at 50 yards w/o any problems at all (sand bags). I was "battle" zeroed at 50 so for a little fun I setup a little competition to see who could hit at 200 yards. Let me tell you it was not easy. Both AR's had iron sights, paper targets were side by side and were mabe 18"x18" in size and we were shooting from sand bags.

I got setup on the bench and when I sighted in I just aimed for "beige" blur as both targets were close enough that you couldn't seperate them let alone see any kind of orange to hit. So needless to say we each shot 10 rounds...and got 5 hits. Now not to brag but it looked like 3 of the 5 hits, according to the spotting scope, come from me :D but we didn't walk down after every mag to check so we wouldn't piss off the other shooters.

I adjusted a little bit for the battle zero since it was 200 yards and not 300 but I just don't know how in world people are hitting with iron sights. Is it just lack of instruction on shooting irons? I also checked and I was using the small peep.
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Lollipop vs. Center Hold w/ Irons

No big trick here, it all depends upon how you've zero'd your sights. Use the same sight picture to set your zero as you will in shooting - come-ups are the same regardless of sighting method. Consistency is the key, build your positions, control your breathing & trigger squeeze and have at it. Dry-fire practice is essential. My wife & daughter think I'm nuts lying on the living room floor all slung up in my coat and "oven mitt" running through a dry-fire match, but it helps keep the various positions ingrained in muscle memory to the point where it becomes instinctive and helps maintain my firing cadence.

Don't let distance mess with your head. In Highpower matches, the centers of the targets are sized such that they appear the same to the eye regardless of distance. If you're on a reduced course, the centers are smaller on the prone targets to simulate the difference in distance. What can bite you at the longer distances is the wind.

Yes, the Offhand stage is the toughest - standing w/no support (sling). Last match, we had 20-25mph wind straight at us & my offhand target looked like I shot it with buckshot! It was not easy to hold steady against that kind of wind. Didn't bother me much the other three stages as I shot to average (87.5%), but it was one day I wished I'd have brought my 17.5# Service Rifle and not the 10# 6.8. Today was a different story as I put 3 of 4 rounds in a cloverleaf with the 4th round landing ~ .5" from the other three (burning up the last of my stash of the old blue-box SSA 115gr. match ammo). Two other offhand groups (with Remmy FMJs) were 9s & 10s, with two 8's opening up the second group. Now if I can only do that in the next match...

Also, many Highpower shooters (myself included) will fire their offhand shots as the front sight comes down on the target - similar to pistol shooters. Some will bounce once or twice to get settled first, but the shot breaks on the downward movement. The slow fire stages are where a two-stage trigger is most beneficial. Trigger pull must be >/= 4.5# to be legal, but this is aggregate across both stages. So, 3.5# first stage + 1# second stage is legal (and works well). Faster lock time also helps to make the rifle go bang right when it needs to (think Gisselle).

Highpower may not be as fun as a run 'n' gun tactical shoot (and can be downright frustrating at times), but you'll gain a great deal of proficiency with your rifle and confidence to make long distance shots.

Hope this helps...
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No big trick here, it all depends upon how you've zero'd your sights. Use the same sight picture to set your zero as you will in shooting - come-ups are the same regardless of sighting method. Consistency is the key, build your positions, control your breathing & trigger squeeze and have at it. Dry-fire practice is essential. My wife & daughter think I'm nuts lying on the living room floor all slung up in my coat and "oven mitt" running through a dry-fire match, but it helps keep the various positions ingrained in muscle memory to the point where it becomes instinctive and helps maintain my firing cadence.

Don't let distance mess with your head. In Highpower matches, the centers of the targets are sized such that they appear the same to the eye regardless of distance. If you're on a reduced course, the centers are smaller on the prone targets to simulate the difference in distance. What can bite you at the longer distances is the wind.

Yes, the Offhand stage is the toughest - standing w/no support (sling). Last match, we had 20-25mph wind straight at us & my offhand target looked like I shot it with buckshot! It was not easy to hold steady against that kind of wind. Didn't bother me much the other three stages as I shot to average (87.5%), but it was one day I wished I'd have brought my 17.5# Service Rifle and not the 10# 6.8. Today was a different story as I put 3 of 4 rounds in a cloverleaf with the 4th round landing ~ .5" from the other three (burning up the last of my stash of the old blue-box SSA 115gr. match ammo). Two other offhand groups (with Remmy FMJs) were 9s & 10s, with two 8's opening up the second group. Now if I can only do that in the next match...

Also, many Highpower shooters (myself included) will fire their offhand shots as the front sight comes down on the target - similar to pistol shooters. Some will bounce once or twice to get settled first, but the shot breaks on the downward movement. The slow fire stages are where a two-stage trigger is most beneficial. Trigger pull must be >/= 4.5# to be legal, but this is aggregate across both stages. So, 3.5# first stage + 1# second stage is legal (and works well). Faster lock time also helps to make the rifle go bang right when it needs to (think Gisselle).

Highpower may not be as fun as a run 'n' gun tactical shoot (and can be downright frustrating at times), but you'll gain a great deal of proficiency with your rifle and confidence to make long distance shots.

Hope this helps...
Great post! I may get with you down the line when I get a chance to build a service rifle upper.

Have you read Glenn Zediker's book "The Competitive AR15" ? I have the old edition, and am going to order the newest one.
The .052" front post is virtually and visibly nearly identical in width to the NRA Highpower bullseye at all ranges from 100 to 600 yards. This allows for very precise windage alignment that is virtually impossible to obtain when shooting combat/silouette style targets. Older eyes sometimes prefer a .062" front post. Mine do.

The perfect circle unables the use of a 6 o'clock hold or the "Navy" hold improving elevation repeatability which is also hindered by combat/silouette targets. Aiming for the center rings when you can't visibly see them is a lot harder on a longer range combat course than hitting the center of a circle.

White Oak Arms pioneered using pins in the rear sight base to remove all the play from an AR sight that's been run up for 600 yard work. Many companies have adopted this method, but I still send my rifles to John Holliger. Buying any "match" sight will improve your rifle because of the finer threads and advantage of 1/4" or 1/2" clicks. But for the price, which is a steal, I send my uppers to him.

The .040" rear aperture is a good comprimise for shooting highpower. Even a .046" works OK. Anything less than that (.040")makes it impossible for me to see the ears on my front sight post in standing. This makes for an overly large rear aperture when shooting prone. If you have the time in a tournament and want to mess with it considering the time restrainsts involved, you can switch rear apertures to suit your ideal. .036" prone works much better for me.

Fanatstic groups can be fired with real match sights. I fired a witnessed 200 yard 5 shot group that measured 1/2" with an adjustable diameter globe front sight, adjustable diameter rear aperture, RPA Trakker rear sight and a J. Holliger built space gun. Load was 24.5 grains of Varget, 69gr SMK, new Winchester brass and Rem 7.5 primer. I shot the rifle prone with a shooting coat and sling, my front hand rested on a sand bag.

I also found that (for me) the A1 rear stock improved my standing scores. It shifted the balance rearward and made the rifle feel more a part of me. It must be noted that NRA matches are fired with heavy shooting jackets with well padded shoulders.

For close work and combat style shooting always go with larger front sights and rear apertures. Speed on target wins the day.
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Art - Yes, I've read Zediker's book (original version). Curious to know if the new edition has significant updates to justify the cost.

Borderpatrol - your points regarding 6 o'clock vs center hold are well taken. A 6 o'clock hold is not so good for silhouette targets. I've tried a .036" aperture, but had issues in sub-optimal lighting conditions, particularly low light such as rain/fog (we shot year-round in TN, regardless of weather - exception for lightning) or shooting at shaded targets with full direct sun (one of the local ranges in TN faces West with a high tree-covered hill behind the target line, start time is 1PM - sun gets pretty nasty during the winter months by the time we're shooting slow-fire prone). That's my eyes, everyone's different.

BTW - should bring up another point. That 1# second stage I mentioned can be a real handicap when your trigger finger is numb from the cold. If you can't feel the trigger, you can end up pulling right through the second stage trying to take up the first.
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Bubba, have you compared your shooting at 100 yards with the shooting coat and sling and with shooting offhand in a combat style to see how different it was? How was your accuracy?
Chalk me up as another that learned to shoot at a young age using iron sighted BB guns and .22's.

One suggestion to get better using peeps or irons at distance, is to get a .22 or an accurate pellet gun. Set them up with peeps, and shoot. Shoot small targets (matchheads, wasps, grasshoppers, bottle caps, spent shotgun shells at 50+ yds, etc.) because that will really get you back to the Fun 'd'Mentals of shooting.
Art - Yes, I've read Zediker's book (original version). Curious to know if the new edition has significant updates to justify the cost.

Borderpatrol - your points regarding 6 o'clock vs center hold are well taken. A 6 o'clock hold is not so good for silhouette targets. I've tried a .036" aperture, but had issues in sub-optimal lighting conditions, particularly low light such as rain/fog (we shot year-round in TN, regardless of weather - exception for lightning) or shooting at shaded targets with full direct sun (one of the local ranges in TN faces West with a high tree-covered hill behind the target line, start time is 1PM - sun gets pretty nasty during the winter months by the time we're shooting slow-fire prone). That's my eyes, everyone's different.

BTW - should bring up another point. That 1# second stage I mentioned can be a real handicap when your trigger finger is numb from the cold. If you can't feel the trigger, you can end up pulling right through the second stage trying to take up the first.
I have all three of Zediker's AR books, counting the "reloading for competition". The latest book was a disappointment for me. It really doesn't have any new material, he builds a half a dozen guns and show cases each of them. Much like we do on our own. His first AR book "The Mouse That Roared" and the "Reloading for Competition" are the best of the class in my eyes. I expected more from his latest effort, forgetting he's already covered just about all there is to cover. New people will probably be delighted with it, it seems old hat to me.
Bubba, have you compared your shooting at 100 yards with the shooting coat and sling and with shooting offhand in a combat style to see how different it was? How was your accuracy?
Paulo- In HP, slings are not allowed in the offhand stage so it's not a factor. Haven't really tried a combat style position in a HP match but since slings are not allowed, I don't find a combat style stance to be as stable unslung. The normal offhand position is pretty stable if you do it right. If I'm snap-shooting, I tend to drift into more of a combat stance and use a "hasty" sling arrangement. Either way, I tend to score better if I don't spend too much time worrying about taking the offhand shot, but rather just relax and shoot.

I'm kind of unusual though, being naturally left-handed & left eye dominant, but shooting right-handed/right-eyed. This does not work well when attempting to shoot with both eyes open for obvious reasons, and is why wingshooting is a waste of ammo for me. I've tried shooting left-handed, but it just doesn't feel right.
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