[rushca01]

How do you do it!!!

My Dad brother and I went to the range on Sunday and my dad and both brought our AR's. I was hitting all day at 50 yards w/o any problems at all (sand bags). I was "battle" zeroed at 50 so for a little fun I setup a little competition to see who could hit at 200 yards. Let me tell you it was not easy. Both AR's had iron sights, paper targets were side by side and were mabe 18"x18" in size and we were shooting from sand bags.

I got setup on the bench and when I sighted in I just aimed for "beige" blur as both targets were close enough that you couldn't seperate them let alone see any kind of orange to hit. So needless to say we each shot 10 rounds...and got 5 hits. Now not to brag but it looked like 3 of the 5 hits, according to the spotting scope, come from me but we didn't walk down after every mag to check so we wouldn't piss off the other shooters.

I adjusted a little bit for the battle zero since it was 200 yards and not 300 but I just don't know how in world people are hitting with iron sights. Is it just lack of instruction on shooting irons? I also checked and I was using the small peep.

 

[ArtFWTx]

Practice and good instruction helped me learn the irons better. I took an AR class where the first day the instructor taught marksmanship with iron sights, and combat shooting with iron sights. He was a huge believer in fundamentals first. We practiced using the NM slings for support, and all the different positions from prone to standing were taught. Plus proper sighting in and zeros with iron sights really become important as you open up the range.

We were hitting at 200-300 with irons after a short time, but misses were still common.

The NM AR's use more precise sights than the standard combat sights, and you can tell a difference when you shoot a match sighted AR.

You are really humbled when someone skilled with iron sights out shoots you while you're using optics.

 

[paulosantos]

You mean you guys weren't shooting 1" groups at 200 Yards with irons? LOL.

It really helps if you use mansize targets. You really just have center the front sight post on the target and not move b hair as you Squeeze the trigger. I love shooting mansize targets at 50 and 100 yards. It really is fun and believe it or not, it really helps you become a better shooter because you really have to concentrate on your fundamentals.

 

[rushca01]

You mean you guys weren't shooting 1" groups at 200 Yards with irons? LOL.

It really helps if you use mansize targets. You really just have center the front sight post on the target and not move b hair as you Squeeze the trigger. I love shooting mansize targets at 50 and 100 yards. It really is fun and believe it or not, it really helps you become a better shooter because you really have to concentrate on your fundamentals.

No 1 inch groups with irons here I don't know how you guys do it.

 

[Mark21]

I'll be the first to admit I'm mediocre at irons AT BEST. Honestly, I only shoot them when I first install a BUIS on my AR to zero them... then it's off to the optics. I learned to shoot on optics (BB gun w/ tasco) and every gun since has been a scope or a red-dot. Now the guns are real and the optics cost 2-3x the rifle, but it's almost like that BB gun from long ago. Maybe I'm like the kid who needs a calculator in class to do long division, but gets A's in calculus. Part of me feels like I'm missing out on a "fundamental", but part of me thinks it would be a waste of time to get better in something I don't need -- eg, I'm not LEO/mil, I don't do competitions with irons, I don't really hunt in situations where if my scope goes down and I don't take the shot I miss the once-in-lifetime rhino/lion/elephant, my scopes can be run over by a tank without breaking (Nightforce, Premier, Aimpoint) so even the BUIS reasoning may not apply...So I frankly dunno if I'm missing out on anything.

I do have a lot of respect for guys that can gauge wind, distance, etc with irons. [Put saluting smiley face here]

 

[paulosantos]

I'll be the first to admit I'm mediocre at irons AT BEST. Honestly, I only shoot them when I first install a BUIS on my AR to zero them... then it's off to the optics. I learned to shoot on optics (BB gun w/ tasco) and every gun since has been a scope or a red-dot. Now the guns are real and the optics cost 2-3x the rifle, but it's almost like that BB gun from long ago. Maybe I'm like the kid who needs a calculator in class to do long division, but gets A's in calculus. Part of me feels like I'm missing out on a "fundamental", but part of me thinks it would be a waste of time to get better in something I don't need -- eg, I'm not LEO/mil, I don't do competitions with irons, I don't really hunt in situations where if my scope goes down and I don't take the shot I miss the once-in-lifetime rhino/lion/elephant, my scopes can be run over by a tank without breaking (Nightforce, Premier, Aimpoint) so even the BUIS reasoning may not apply...So I frankly dunno if I'm missing out on anything.

I do have a lot of respect for guys that can gauge wind, distance, etc with irons. [Put saluting smiley face here]

Iron sights just pose a different challenge and are actually fun. I'm going to the range tomorrow and I'll post some pick of the targets I use and the 30 round shooting I do with irons, then aimpoint, then aimpoint with 3xMag.

You really need the right target to shoot irons or else it will suck.

 

[rushca01]

Iron sights just pose a different challenge and are actually fun. I'm going to the range tomorrow and I'll post some pick of the targets I use and the 30 round shooting I do with irons, then aimpoint, then aimpoint with 3xMag.

You really need the right target to shoot irons or else it will suck.

I would love to see your results between the different sights. I think the targets we had were part of our problem. They were small, blended into the OSB they were stapled too, and basically colorless. I know those aren't great excuses but I'm ok with that.

 

[HTR]

It is definitely different sort of challenge. When I grew up, I shot nothing but an iron-sighted Sheridan Pellet gun. I got so good with that gun, I used to make long range "slugs" buy swaging .22 slugs down to .20 cal, and shooting them at squirrels 100 yards away, across the Buffalo Bayou in Houston.

Then, once I got old enough to have my first car (a 140MPH, candy apple red, 1980 Z-28 with Gold stripes and functioning hood-scoop!) I bought my first scope. I hated it.

But, by that time, I already had about 10 years of irons under my belt. So, when I got my first AR-15, I didn't DARE put optics on it. For heaven's sake, it was a mouse gun, and combat rifle, after all!

So, for another 15 years, I shot the XM177 and my 20 Colt Sporter with irons, and hit targets like old steel Dump truck wheels at distances of up to 250 yards. There is a lot of "Zen" invloved in this. I am very lucky, though, and I had 20/10 distance vision until I hit 45. Now, its around 20/20

That is also how I learned to shoot and hit 500 yard, man-size silouhettes with nothing more than an unmagnified Eotech.....while sitting right beside a friend who had the AR-10, $2400 S & B scope, and a ballistics program in his palm-pilot.

 

[joshuades]

Oh, what it would be like to have 20/20 vision. At 20/200, I'm lucky to hit the toilet bowl without my glasses on. :/

 

[ArtFWTx]

When I took that rifle class, we were using NRA targets and Army silhouette targets. So that probably helped the group.

I have also shot a custom NM AR with match sights. They make a huge difference at range. You have a smaller rear peep, this one was hooded, and a very slender front post. This way the front sight wasn't wider than the target like the standard post seems to be the longer the range is. You can make fine movement adjustments w/ the NM sights as you're pulling through the trigger.

 

[bedlamite]

Sounds like it's time for you to head to an Appleseed, there's two coming up this month in OH

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5845.0 (22lr only, but will get you the necessary skills)
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=5406.0 (500 yd range)

I went to one this spring, and I didn't realize how much a refresher would help. I ended up shooting a 211 in 50 degree pouring rain. The price was reasonable too, only $35/day

 

[Bubba FAL]

+1 on the Appleseed suggestion! If you can hit @ 25yds, you can use the same techniques to hit @ long range.

As a Highpower shooter, we have to use irons. Trust me, there are plenty of guys shooting Expert or higher scores. It's not magic, just finding what works for you (more on this later) and practice, practice, practice. Irons work - we shoot in all weather and I've managed to post some pretty good match scores when it was impossible to see through the spotting scope due to rain or other condensation on the lenses.

I have progressive astigmatism, but it's not as big a deal as you might think. Focus on the front sight post and place it consistently on the fuzzy grey dot on the target line. (Make sure it's the correct fuzzy dot!).

Some folks like a center hold, I prefer a 6-oclock hold (what the Marines call a "lollipop" hold) - the bull sits on top of the front sight post. This seems to be preferred when shooting targets with a black center.

Here's a secret - we cheat! By this I mean we tune our sights for our eyes. I use a .040" rear aperture on my service rifle and 6.8, a .046" on my M4-gery. This can be a handicap in a low light scenario, but that's what the big peep is for. BTW - flipping between the small and large apertures on the AR will change your POI.

The front post on all of my ARs is .052". Some of the AMU guys that have shot with us actually like a wider front post - say it's easier to center the target dot that way. They shoot better scores than I do, so I won't argue. FWIW - the standard post on an M1 is designed to be used as a basic rangefinder - if the post is smaller in width than the person in your sights, use normal sight picture, if not, hold higher.

Knowing your load ballistics will provide your "come-ups" or sight adjustments for various ranges. I zero my battle rifles @ 200yds, as this is the most common distance I shoot at. Depending on your sights/load, a 100yd zero may cause you to run out of elevation adjustment at extreme distance. Also, understand that if you have 1/2 MOA adjustments, the amount of POI shift provided by each click is multiplied by the distance (in hundreds of meters). For example, one click at 100M shifts POI by 1/2", the same adjustment at 200M shifts POI by 1".

After you get all this figured out, then you get to deal with deal with windage, which is a whole other discussion.

Hope this helps...

 

[paulosantos]

Just got back from the range. Before I start, here is the B-27C-GREEN Target that I use. Here is a picture of it to show the size comparison to an FBI Reduced target. The B-27C is 12.5"x18.5":

Here is the course that I do:
Course of Fire #1
Distance: 100 Yards.
Position: Prone. I generally use just the Bipod or just prone. Today I use the Bipod.
Round count: 10 Rounds.
Time limit: 30 sec's for semi-autos (1 min 0 sec's of manual operated rifles).
Directions: At the command of shooter ready, the shooter has a firearm loaded and placed on safe. On the command of fire, the shooter engages the target with 10 rounds with in time frame.
Scoring: A maximum score is 450 Points. Only bullets in the X, 10, 9, and 8 will count. If the bullets breaks the plane of the higher ring, count the higher score.
X: 15 Points.
10: 10 Points.
9. 9 Points.
8. 8 Points.

Course of Fire #2
Distance: 100 Yards.
Position: Kneeling Position. Sling can be used for supprt.
Round count: 10 Rounds.
Time limit: 30 sec's for semi-autos (1 min 0 sec's of manual operated rifles).
Directions: At the command of shooter ready, the shooter has a firearm loaded and placed on safe. On the command of fire, the shooter engages the target with 10 rounds with in time frame.
Scoring: A maximum score is 450 Points. Only bullets in the X, 10, 9, and 8 will count. If the bullets breaks the plane of the higher ring, count the higher score.
X: 15 Points.
10: 10 Points.
9. 9 Points.
8. 8 Points.

Course of Fire #3
Distance: 100 Yards.
Position: Off hand / standing. Sling can be used for support.
Round count: 10 Rounds.
Time limit: 30 sec's for semi-autos (1 min 0 sec's of manual operated rifles).
Directions: At the command of shooter ready, the shooter has a firearm loaded and placed on safe. On the command of fire, the shooter engages the target with 10 rounds with in time frame.
Scoring: A maximum score is 450 Points. Only bullets in the X, 10, 9, and 8 will count. If the bullets breaks the plane of the higher ring, count the higher score.
X: 15 Points.
10: 10 Points.
9. 9 Points.
8. 8 Points.

Here are the results:

IRONS:
X: 9 (135 Points).
10: 6 (60 Points).
9: 10 (90 Points).
8: 4 (32 Points).
Total Points: 317 Points.
Misses. 1.

Aimpoint with 3xMagnifier:
X: 4 (60 Points).
10: 14 (140 Points).
9: 9 (81 Points).
8: 3 (24 Points).
Total Points: 305 Points.
NOTE: If you look at the target, those nine rounds right underneath the "X", were as a result of a bad zero. If those had been in the X, the score would have been 350 Points.

Aimpoint:
X: 3 (45 Points).
10: 10 (100 Points).
9: 12 (108 Points).
8: 4 (32 Points).
Total Points: 285 Points.
Misses. 1.

Conclusion:
As you can see, I did just as good with the irons as I did with the Aimpoint with 3xMagnifier and better than the Aimpoint. To be honest, I was tired when I shot with the Aimpoint, which was my last 30 rounds. After every ten rounds that I shoot, I check the targets. Ideally, when in the prone, I like to get most of them in the X. From Kneeling, I like to try to get most of them in the 10 or X. From Standing, I try to get most of them in the 9 or better. And that is pretty much how I shot

 

[ArtFWTx]

So Paulosantos is pretty deadly with whatever he picks up.

 

[Jamesb74]

I would not want to piss off the Paulo. It would not end well with that kind of shooting.

So when are we going to kick up the quarterly competitions again. Are you waiting till more members have a 6.8?

 

[paulosantos]

I would not want to piss off the Paulo. It would not end well with that kind of shooting.

So when are we going to kick up the quarterly competitions again. Are you waiting till more members have a 6.8?

We'll start it up again when I come back from vacation.

 

[Mark21]

Let me embarrass myself publicly by asking a question I've been curious about after ten years of shooting... several people have mentioned Highpower/Match sights... I've seen those in the Brownells catalog, and it always illicits a "WTF?" from me... it seems like a protractor on top of a periscope with a hooded sight and all kinds of crazy things. Anyway, as I've stated, I'm not really good with irons. So besides the "line up the front post in the middle of the cutout in the back and focus on the front post so the target is blurry (on a pistol), or look through peephole and your eye will center the front post (on an AR) -- what do these complex sights bring to the game? Bubba Fal touched on this with his explanation, but does anyone have a more detailed explanation -- or better yet, to save you typing, a link to point to?

And another thing -- the lollipop vs center hold -- won't that put the bullets into different holes on paper? How can two people be shooting at the X in exactly the same targets, using different sighting techniques (one at the bottom of the target, one at the center), and both hit the X? With an Aimpoint, once centered, I put the dot where I want bullet to go. With a scope, I use the cross hairs and either dial in dope or use holdovers, but the center is always the center, if that makes sense. If I change the way I use the scope or dot, I will change the trajectory of the round.

Lastly, thanks for the Appleseed suggestion. That looks exactly like what I need! And sorry to the OP for semi-hijacking the thread.

 

[ArtFWTx]

Let me embarrass myself publicly by asking a question I've been curious about after ten years of shooting... several people have mentioned Highpower/Match sights... I've seen those in the Brownells catalog, and it always illicits a "WTF?" from me... it seems like a protractor on top of a periscope with a hooded sight and all kinds of crazy things. Anyway, as I've stated, I'm not really good with irons. So besides the "line up the front post in the middle of the cutout in the back and focus on the front post so the target is blurry (on a pistol), or look through peephole and your eye will center the front post (on an AR) -- what do these complex sights bring to the game? Bubba Fal touched on this with his explanation, but does anyone have a more detailed explanation -- or better yet, to save you typing, a link to point to?

And another thing -- the lollipop vs center hold -- won't that put the bullets into different holes on paper? How can two people be shooting at the X in exactly the same targets, using different sighting techniques (one at the bottom of the target, one at the center), and both hit the X? With an Aimpoint, once centered, I put the dot where I want bullet to go. With a scope, I use the cross hairs and either dial in dope or use holdovers, but the center is always the center, if that makes sense. If I change the way I use the scope or dot, I will change the trajectory of the round.

Lastly, thanks for the Appleseed suggestion. That looks exactly like what I need! And sorry to the OP for semi-hijacking the thread.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/FAR15NM.htm

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

http://www.accuracyspeaks.com/

http://www.zediker.com/

http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/

Also, you shoot either the lollipop or center hold for that rifle for correct target impacts like you questioned. And you use the NM sights like you would a scope with come ups and windage adjustments for range and wind.

I was introduced to service rifle shooting and want to get into it.

 

[rushca01]

Let me embarrass myself publicly by asking a question I've been curious about after ten years of shooting... several people have mentioned Highpower/Match sights... I've seen those in the Brownells catalog, and it always illicits a "WTF?" from me... it seems like a protractor on top of a periscope with a hooded sight and all kinds of crazy things. Anyway, as I've stated, I'm not really good with irons. So besides the "line up the front post in the middle of the cutout in the back and focus on the front post so the target is blurry (on a pistol), or look through peephole and your eye will center the front post (on an AR) -- what do these complex sights bring to the game? Bubba Fal touched on this with his explanation, but does anyone have a more detailed explanation -- or better yet, to save you typing, a link to point to?

And another thing -- the lollipop vs center hold -- won't that put the bullets into different holes on paper? How can two people be shooting at the X in exactly the same targets, using different sighting techniques (one at the bottom of the target, one at the center), and both hit the X? With an Aimpoint, once centered, I put the dot where I want bullet to go. With a scope, I use the cross hairs and either dial in dope or use holdovers, but the center is always the center, if that makes sense. If I change the way I use the scope or dot, I will change the trajectory of the round.

Lastly, thanks for the Appleseed suggestion. That looks exactly like what I need! And sorry to the OP for semi-hijacking the thread.

No hijack worries my friend. We are all trying to learn so type away!

Paulo, very nice shooting and right up and thanks for the honest results. What you did at 100 is what my targets look like at 50. I promise you if this was Barfcom and I posted this people would be posting different results then what you did.

 

[paulosantos]

Paulo, very nice shooting and right up and thanks for the honest results. What you did at 100 is what my targets look like at 50. I promise you if this was Barfcom and I posted this people would be posting different results then what you did.

The one thing I forgot to mention is that shooting with the Aimpoint and Aimpoint w/3xMag is faster than with the irons. When you shoot from teh prone position with the irons, I like to focus on the front sight post and come up on the target.
Shooting from the standing position is hard if you don't practice. From the prone, I can get pretty much all 30 in the X and 10, but it just takes practice.