SBR the braced lower?

I found one of the threads I was talking about in my previous post.












From the op:

"-on the approval block it states "approved with conditions- review last page of the PDF" then the last page of the PDF states "Pursuant to ATF final rule 2021r-08".







-no photos of the gun were requested by the ATF







-apparently no engraving requirements for these either?







- the pdf does not actually have a printed image of the "tax stamp" like any other NFA approval











This is not an endorsement or encouragement to register pistols under this scheme, nor am i advising anyone against it. You are all big boys and can do what you choose to do. Just passing along info i found somewhat interesting"

Still have over fifty unbuilt lowers from when was buying MAG Tactical billet magnesium in 30 to 120 count quantities for $19 each. LGS said their wholesale price was $72 so when asked what I paid said $39 not to flip them out. Owner asked if could have some of my weekly orders and began letting them have half at $39 each. If was able to order 30 for $19 each sold 15 to LGS and my 15 were free, if they let me have 60 one week then I kept 30 for free and most got in a week was 120 so got all patents and equipment.had 60 free billet machined lightweight lowers.

Started with buying their blems every week at one to ten in crazy colors like pink and zombie green along with normal. As they got closer to bankruptcy was told to call every Thursday which I think they were looking at bank balance and payroll then selling me however many in any color wanted that would give them enough cash flow to write paychecks. After they folded I actually tried to buy their equipment out of bankruptcy but a deal was made and Fostech got it all.

Soon Fostech sent all the lowers engraved MAG Tactical to Centerfire Systems who sold them for $99 in three packs with free shipping for $33 each. Added three to twelve to every Centerfire Systems order itll they ran out so ended up with hundreds of them. At $19 to $33 each, mostly $19, I can afford to register a dozen under amnesty and if it goes sideways can disassemble and mail the lowers to ATF with a thank you note for saving me from death.

Wasn't that long ago sale priced lowers at Palmetto and many others were $35 or lees and sure many others loaded up like I did. I even have two dozen Andersons bought at an LGS for $25 each when owner was trying to reduce inventory. Have another dozen or so SWAT Firearms billet receiver sets plus dozens of SIG upper receivers paid under $20 for in a big bulk buy from CDNN when SIG stepped away from traditional ARs to their proprietary version. Same with barrels have at least 40 to 50 or more from negotiating bulk deals like a dozen 14.7" FN CHF 6.8 spc II in single purchase for $29 each.

At no cost its worth trying to amnesty a dozen receivers (yes they will be complete pistols under published rules) as have at least six or eight that fall in catagory already and screwing a few more together is easy. $2,400 in amnesty stamps may be a big pay off later and if goes south am only out the cost of about one or two stamps at twentyish bucks per lower. Started entering some last night and had some issues so going to LGS and let owner walk me through it as he ha done a pile. I believe binary triggers will go down the same rabbit hole soon and since have a couple dozen this will be a test on how amnesty works in 2023...

Woodstock said:

This is not correct. Once you get it approved you can form 4 it and transfer it to your trust. There is also a tax free way for your children or who ever to receive it. Simply put it in your will who it goes to then upon your death they fill out a form 5, application for tax exempt transfer. It must remain at the address on the original form 1 (or 4) until the form 5 is approved.

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If this is correct I might get my wife to kiss you if ever met in person. Figure you rather kiss her than me ;-) If able to transfer an amnesty gun into one of my Tursts (have thre, one backe my dad on when I was a teenager and couldn't buy toys in my name, a pre Obama Trust that just goes to a Trustee and post Obama Trust) without paying $200 per pop I want an entire binder of ATF stamps like a 90 year old guy with his lifetime stamp collection.

I paid to have a Family Trust drawn in dads name with me as Trustee and heir at age 17 and had five items in it before age 21 when I took it over. Have a pre Obama 41P Trust and post Obama 41F Trust so the horses slipped out of the gate a long time ago. In the six months leading up to 41F deadline added eight suppressors to my 41P like many others and bet Obama sold more suppressors than any other president as folks like me loaded their older Trusts. No way would I have added what turned out to be nine suppressors to my collection in a year had it not been for the rule change.

Almost everyone I knew that were gun people but had no NFA items set up last minute Trusts and bought a few suppressors. Ever manufacturer, distributor and retailer I knew were selling cans as fast as they could make them. In one day I helped the senior pastor, associate pastor, administrative pastor and three men on our church security team through setting up 41P Trusts using Silencershops online tool, we witnessed each others Trusts and had church secretary motorize them. Then we went to my LGS and all ordered at least two and most three, four or more.

Advised those that could to buy one multi-caliber rifle can and one multi-caliber pistol can for each child and grandchild. Senior pastor had one grandchild born a matter of two weeks before the deadline and bought that grand-kid three suppressors before he had his eyes open well. He was smart and set up separate 41P Trusts for each kid and grand-kid so upon his death wouldn't be difficulty splitting items in one Trust between three kids and four grand-kids.

Feds haven't realized rule changes just cause a rush to "top-off" on whatever before rules change. Have started by doing the online applications for the AR pistols I know are affected. Have at least a dozen 7.5" to 12.5" un-built barrels that are "spares" or bought cause caught them cheap. Tomorrow am calling my Trust lawyer for an appointment to see how he interprets this rule and amnesty. If able to use it to basically create a pile of NFA SBRs or "bastard" SBRs will screw all I can together.

Have a few unused pistol braces and LGS said they alrady have people bringing in pistols to have long muzzle devices pinned, barrels swapped and braces swapped to stocks that are "scared" of letting the Feds know they have ARs or other similar firearms. I have always thought tax stamped NFA firearms may be the last ones to be confiscated as gun laws change because they have such good paperwork trail and to my knowledge only one or two NFA registered firearms have ever been used for a crime. I learned the ATF agents almost write NFA holders off as threats.

Bach when I was getting all the $19 lowers and selling half of each order to LGS was when ATF agents came through town auditing every LGS. Am prone to buy deals so one shop selss me deals on occasion if buy a half dozen rifles or more. They had been audited and the agents saw where I had bought 18 Smith & Wesson M&P15s in three buys and six DPMS AR10s in a single buy plus others. At another LGS they saw my name pop up on dozens of SIG pistols especially SIG 1911s. They happened to be auditing my preferred LGS for transfers the day had 120 AR 15 lowers arrive.

I arrived, walked behind counter into storage room where they were going through records (for those that think they don't really look at 4473s have never seen a shop audited) as I pulled two 30 count boxes of lowers off the shelf. this was their third day in the shop and I was in so much they assumed was an employee so asked me "is that guy who buys so many lower receivers in?" and I said I am that person. (buy lots of AR 10, FN FAL, L!a1, 1911 and other receivers. They asked if willing to answer a few questions but was not obligated or required. I always figure complying with cops or government men is always easier than forcing them to get a warrant.

Sat at table and explained I enjoy building guns, stay below my 40 per year personal limit and "never" sell anything I build as they are my toys and will just pass to heirs. They had sen a fair number of suppressor Form 4s and I went to truck and brought in briefcase with photocopies of all the paperwork and forms for three Trusts. Explained I bought the AR lowers for $19 each, sold half to shop for $39 each making mine free when all was done as they were not charging me transfer fees and can put 30 serial numbers on a single 4473. Agents said if could get same deal, wives would let them buy parts to build 24 to 36 firearms per year they would do same thing.

Back in 1996 when Olympics were in Atlanta the rowing events were in my back yard. From my deck or dock could see the rowing lanes, grandstands and awards podium. Our house was behind the security line so from 30 days before opening ceremony till final day of event had to go through roadblock to get home and come home for lunch most days. first day of the roadblock was a fiasco as had a brand new "tactical turn bolt" with huge scope from my custom bolt gunsmith in front seat, AR 15 in lock behind seats and wearing a 1911. Took over two hours of radio traffic between local and federal officers to determine the 2nd Amendment was not suspended for the Olympics.

I began leaving house everyday with something like a M14, suppressed Ingram M11a1, H&K MP40 or HK91/G3, AC 556 and all sorts of really evil looking guns. My dogs really didn't like the teams the were patrolling the shoreline, especially after dark especially when a group would walk our fence-line to avoid areas with heavy brush. After about two weeks of this came home for lunch and had knock at door. it was group of men in suits from ATF and FBI wanting to ask about our firearms storage. Invited them in but they said didn't have a warrant and I said it didn't matter, wife would put on pot of coffee and we would go to the gun room.

When they saw we have a concrete room in basement with a vault door and line of professional TL-15 and TL-30 rated safes, all the reloading then ammo in OSHA explosion proof fire lockers they were happy. When wife brought everyone coffee and I began opening safes and letting them play with the toys were even happier. Cops and agents like cooperation and the more open you are the happier they are. I believe we are going to eventually see a ban on new sales of our toys, bans on manufacturing of high capacity magazines and even loss of some toys we already own like they took bump stocks. Believe the last firearms affected will be those with ATF stamps in legal Trusts. Even have one listed under my corporation as it has a sideline of ballistic barriers and security services.

If you don't want to be in "the system" start converting even pistols currently not affected to rifles as all will eventually get the "bump-stock slap down". If its in any way a pistol and not already a NFA registered SBR expect it to be regulated away eventually. I am taking the chance this loophole will allow me to legally keep mine longer so going to play ball. If they come after NFA stuff I am screwed as have most of my "retirement" or "savings" tied up in such stuff.

You said: There seems to be a lot of controversy, mistrust.......

I don't have a braced AR pistol. I did build a 300BLK with one years ago but have long ago sold it. Honestly I did not find it useful to actually use the brace as intended.

BATFE has overstepped. They will be cut off in court. I would not do a thing until the courts, probably the SC, tell them to pound sand.

And I do not buy the amnesty nonsense. They have zero statutory authority to do this.

Registering is confessing in great detail that you are a felon. With well over a million braces on the market what is the likelihood that you see a timely approval?? Zero. And lack of a timely approval constitutes a denial. Then you are a bonafide felon and they have all of your details.

If it actually goes their way I'd just take the brace off.

But I honestly think they have overstepped to the point where this and some more of their infringement will be slapped down. BATFE is not Congress and Congress is not going to join the infringement.

LGS employee claims he has three approvals already back. Do I take a risk and "amnesty" a few as individual and not transfer into Trust just in case courts don't knock it down and amnesty period runs out. Can skip the entire mess and just SBR them and be done with it. Have a pair of SBRs and don't really need more. Another option since run a can on most would be to Form 1 a few homebrew sealed cans and pin to pistols and then add stock so become rifles. I piled up so many parts when were near free like $19 receivers, many were free as two barrel companies were/still giving me their test barrels and only run 50 rounds through them. At LGS whenever someone buys an AR and has them swap it from milspec collapsible stock to upgraded stocks all the milspec go in a box for me. Same with gas blocks and handguards.

Have over two dozen AR 15s (rifles and pistols) that have less than $100 total invested. Several companies give me parts to abuse like "5.56 ONLY" short buffers to build on 6.8s and 22 Noslers and tell them how they hold up. I go into LGS on busy Saturdays and work for free in the gunsmith department which ensures I get piles of take off parts as most people don't want to keep their mispec triggers, bolt carriers, buffers, stocks, etc which I don't understand but happily take them and build complete guns.

I am willing to risk a few lowers and braces if it flips upside down and have to mail ATF a few lowers and braces. Way I read the new ruling can just take the brace off, leaving the buffer tube and your legal. My gun Trust lawyer is looking hard at the law and going to have a discussion first of next week to decide if amnesty a few or not.

Hueyville if I’m understanding it correctly the plus side of going with the “ free stamp” is # 1 it’s fast #2 it doesn’t cost $200 # 3 you will not need to have it engraved . The down side is since it can’t be put in a trust without paying $200 only you will be allowed to carry it .If it is in a trust anyone on the trust can legally carry it . I guess any time wife - kid - friends or whoever wanted to hunt with (or take out to the range )an SBR I can be sure it’s the one that I pay $200 for and had engraved and is in the trust . And ,as Woodstock suggested , I could instruct my family on how to legally transfer the “free stamp “ ones when I’m gone . I’m assuming since they were pistols before they were SBR I will be able to remove the stock and scope and put a brace and red dot back on it when and if this goes the way the bump sock went . That way I can go back and forth across state lines and carry it loaded in neighboring state and in and through marktwain Nat forest , non of which I can do with a SBR .

Coltdriver said:

BATFE has overstepped. They will be cut off in court. I would not do a thing until the courts, probably the SC, tell them to pound sand.

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I'm not expecting it to play out that way once it gets to SCOTUS. Face it, the brace is just a "crappy stock called a brace," and any expert witness can show that. Heck, most of us bought it because it WAS a crappy stock called a brace! If it's a stock (even if called a brace), it's regulated by NFA34. 99% of the "brace" owners, if they are honest, know it is a stock and use it as such at least occasionally.

Coltdriver said:

And I do not buy the amnesty nonsense. They have zero statutory authority to do this.

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Except that they DO under laws that give regulatory agencies discretionary action on such taxes. The ATF has covered their base there. PLUS, there is lots of precedence. This has been done before, and it has NEVER been lost in court. Streetsweeper shotguns are just one of the more recent examples.

Coltdriver said:

Registering is confessing in great detail that you are a felon. With well over a million braces on the market what is the likelihood that you see a timely approval?? Zero. And lack of a timely approval constitutes a denial. Then you are a bonafide felon and they have all of your details.

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They can't use the data submitted on a form for a felony conviction. That's federal law, so you aren't self-incriminating.

You are legal, regardless of how long it takes, as long as you filed in the 120 window. That "88 day" thing is an FBI rule on4473. It isn't relevant to Form 1s and the ATF. That's a scare tactic by the GOA to, likely, get membership and donations up. ...or, they are just stupid and wrong. Regardless, this is from when the check is started - not the form 1 filed. This scares the uninformed only.

They have ALREADY approved MANY of the free brace Form1s. So, your time fear, so far, is not supported. Heck, we are used to 8-13 months for a Form 4, so that's NOTHING for NFA items. Paid form 1s are usually less than 2 months, but who cares if this takes a year? Unlike a normal form 1, you can actually keep the pistol in the current format during the approval process!

Mine were submitted on Jan29th. The ones that went to "submitted" will be approved before the end of March, I betcha! I have a couple that went into the category needing more research,and I'm not sure how long those will take. (I submitted them as a caliber they didn't have on file for that lower,. so they need to have a person look at it first.)