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How many people think pistol caliber cartridges kill better than rifle caliber cartridges

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Seems like the bullets would pinch in the mag between the front rib. The bullets of the 30 Herrett are very close to hitting the front rib.
I think they are using AR 410 shotgun magazines and the casings are not full length, they are shortened.
 

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In the early 2000s all you had to do was say "hydrostatic shock" to really, really upset Dr. Roberts and most of the other people studying wound ballistics. "Remote Wounding" would do it too. They had no problem with damage a few inches from the bullet track, but there was one guy (Courtney maybe?) who kept saying that you could shoot an animal in the leg and the hydrostatic shock would cause the blood vessels in its brain to explode. They HATED that guy.
Hahaha I remember those debates, those two guys tried to ruin the careers of anyone who said otherwise. My neighbor did the documentation work on eyeballs. If you've ever been punched in the gut or chest and then saw stars, got vertigo or blacked out vision, that is remote wounding. He worked in the same operating room has the doctors documenting liver damage.
 

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I say go with 300blk. From what I found the Barnes 110 black tip factory ammo is doing 2000-2100 FPS out of an 8ish” barrel. Probably get a little more if you handload.

I seem to remember Yama saying the 125 MKZ can be loaded almost as fast as a 110gr. So in theory, you should be able to push a 125 MKZ around 2100fps, from an 8” barrel. Might not be the best round for terminal performance, but should be better than a pistol round.
 

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Do you know if anyone has tried the 350 Legend from a short barrel. It has a .357 bullet and a lot more powder behind it. Hodgdon list 24-30gr of powder. The bullets aren't as sleek as the 300, but the larger diameter bullet should make better use of the powder.
This is an interesting idea, one that I hadn't given much thought to.

I was less than impressed with the 350 Legend when it was released as in my opinion it's only real value is to provide a straight walled, .35"+ cartridge to hunters in such restrictive states another and potentially improved option from what the market currently offers. Outside of that, it really doesn't outperform anything on the market or provide any real benefit if you don't have those restrictions for deer hunting.

However, as a short barrel, close range CQB/PDW type weapon, I could see some hard hitting performance. I believe there is also subsonic factory loads available. Neat idea and good thought.
 
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I do not but should work well on deer and hogs. I never run across anyone shooting the 450 BM, 458 Socom, 30RAR or anything like that. I would like to see the real sales numbers of those rounds.
I was thinking about the 350 Legend for your 8" weapon. Its sales numbers are certainly nowhere near .223, but being pretty much a straight-walled .223 case that is 43mm long, it would seem much more potent your other options. It seems to hold about 50% more of the same powders that a supersonic 300 BO uses, at least according to Hodgdon.
 

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Another way to look at it is that an 8" 350 legend would be more potent than a 6" .357 Magnum with a much higher capacity right?
 

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So pistol calibers kill better than rifle calibers?
Not saying that at all. Just saying that if you put a gun shot victim in front of the average doctor, they wouldn't know what they were shot with.

You probably know this stuff, but just in case.... Going back to what Dr. Martin Fackler and Dr. Gary Roberts said a number of years ago, it has to do with the amount of stretch from the temporary cavity (TC). If the temp cavity is too small (handgun rounds), pretty much everything returns to its original location unharmed. The only permanent damage is what the bullet cut and crushed on its way though. If the TC is large enough, some tissues tear before they return. If there are fragments that cut the tissue while it is stretched, the damage can be much worse. WHEN 5.56 fragments, that's why it is so deadly (it didn't alway fragment, though). That is also why the proposed military bullets for the 6.8 SPC all fragmented. Surgeons like Fackler who actually worked with combat injuries made the distinction between simple "pistol-like injuries" and the more complex "rifle-like" injuries that often had more widespread damage. The pistol bullet needs to hit the vital organ whereas the rifle bullet just needs to get close enough while traveling fast enough.

The recent rule of thumb for "rifle-like effects" has become 2200 fps (one of the hunting ammo makers recently stated that on a video), the real world is more complicated than that. It is combination of effective frontal area and speed as well as exactly what tissue the bullet is passing through. An expanded bullet has an increased effective frontal area as does a FMJ when traveling sideways. Years ago, I asked Dr. Roberts about .30 carbine and he said that it showed "rifle-like" wounding, fwiw. He also said that an expanding .44mag out of a carbine caused rifle-like wounds. My understanding is that the large diameter of the mushrooming bullet makes up for the lower velocity.

Duncan MacPherson wrote an article in the Wound Ballistics Review an number of years ago about the "stunning effect" of high-velocity rifle rounds. He stated that if a bullet traveling at high velocity passes near the spine, the force of the moving tissue from the TC smashes into the spine, essentially causing enough blunt force trauma to stun the animal. Often it is stunned long enough to bleed out before it can recover and run off. This explains some DRT's that miss the spine but manage to drop the animal. Apparently this surprised a lot of hunters who switched from 30-30's to .270's in the 1920's and 30's
I haven't read everything else posted, but my statement was referring to the average ER doctor, not to a battle field medic/doctor/surgeon etc.
 

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I haven't read everything else posted, but my statement was referring to the average ER doctor, not to a battle field medic/doctor/surgeon etc.
You are right. I have seen articles that talk about that. One of the things that was noted was that relatively few ER Docs have actually treated patients who have been shot by a rifle because the victims are usually dead before they arrive. I am not trying to be funny, although it sounds like the setup to a joke. A lot of rifle accidents happen out in the woods, far away from medical care and the wounds are often severe.
 

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Another way to look at it is that an 8" 350 legend would be more potent than a 6" .357 Magnum with a much higher capacity right?
Right. The 350 Legend holds about twice the amount of powder. It also can run at a higher pressure. It is a considerable step up from from the .357 Mag.
 

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I'll tell you that most ER docs don't care what caliber/type was involved. It doesn't change much. You assess the patient and intervene based on what is in front of you. As is noted if you sift through the hunting forum, the same round can have vastly different effects based on the situation/angle of impact/range/etc.

Decades ago as a young SF medic wannabee we watched army research films and >1900fps was the magic number with FMJs for the difference between the temporary wound cavity and permanent. They would have cow arteries/veins stretched in a medium and generally pistol rounds would literally shove arteries aside with anything but a direct hit. A rifle round would explode the same examples. I won't go into specifics but in our more advanced trauma training, controlled wounding would not generate the same effect necessarily.

Shot placement definitely seems to make the most difference (nothing new there).
 

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Right. The 350 Legend holds about twice the amount of powder. It also can run at a higher pressure. It is a considerable step up from from the .357 Mag.
And it would offer damn near rifle like wounding properties. That is assuming the short barrel didn't give up too much velocity. They advertise most of the rounds at around 2300 or so. Not sure what test barrel length that is with though. I would assume pretty good barrier penetration as well.
 
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Discussion Starter #72
If someone made a barrel that would handle subsonic and supersonic loads and ammo was made to match maybe.
 

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There are sub sonic loads advertised but the barrels seem to all be 1:16 twist. Not sure how that works.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
There are sub sonic loads advertised but the barrels seem to all be 1:16 twist. Not sure how that works.
That 16 twist is what I was wondering about.
 

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I'll tell you that most ER docs don't care what caliber/type was involved. It doesn't change much. You assess the patient and intervene based on what is in front of you. As is noted if you sift through the hunting forum, the same round can have vastly different effects based on the situation/angle of impact/range/etc.

Decades ago as a young SF medic wannabee we watched army research films and >1900fps was the magic number with FMJs for the difference between the temporary wound cavity and permanent. They would have cow arteries/veins stretched in a medium and generally pistol rounds would literally shove arteries aside with anything but a direct hit. A rifle round would explode the same examples. I won't go into specifics but in our more advanced trauma training, controlled wounding would not generate the same effect necessarily.

Shot placement definitely seems to make the most difference (nothing new there).
Exactly. "Remote wounding" is real, but "Hydrostatic" shock gets blown out of proportion, pun intended. The human body is elastic and just like a rubber band has its limits and can break or have no effect. The further away you get from the point of impact (and depending on the magnitude), the pressure wave gets absorbed and has less effect. It's not going to make the brain explode. Any damage to the brain or other organs will be from the smallest of blood vessels that may get ruptured. You'll do far more damage banging your head against the wall.

There are a whole lot of factors that come to play, but it is generally considered somewhere around 2000 ftlbs of energy is the threshold. "Hydrodynamic" shock won't kill you, but it can render you unconscious. While unconscious you are likely to die the old-fashioned way, bleed-out from the conventional gunshot wound. You get knocked out, but wake up dead.
 

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...While unconscious you are likely to die the old-fashioned way, bleed-out from the conventional gunshot wound. You get knocked out, but wake up dead.
...or double-tapped as they assault through...
 
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Why do all the doctors say pistol wounds don't do that much damage but rifle rounds destroy much more?
Perhaps I did not state the concepts clearly which I was trying to convey (unless your question is rhetorical). Rifle rounds have much higher KE and much higher Velocity. It's that combination that causes a massive hydrostatic pressure wave because the soft tissue can only be moved out of the way so far and stretched so far before tearing, being mostly water.

That pressure wave causes additional tearing (especially with bullet fragments that have already weakened tissue radially around the point of fragmentation), making a vastly disproportionate wound relative to the projectile size. It's that resistance to the projectile that obviously also causes the bullet to fragment, having pressure around it's frontal area, especially when they yah and have a cannelure which weakens the frontal region. When turning sideways to any degree, we now have even MORE area with pressure on it and it breaks apart.

This is one reason why fleet AOA issues caused inconsistencies in M855's fragmentation ability even at very close ranges (0 to 50 yards) with through and through hits. Because it is also velocity dependent, at intermediate distances it once again becomes a problem because now regardless of AOA, the hydraulic pressure against the projectile is no longer high enough to cause fragmentation (typically 150 yards for a M4 and about 200 yards for an M16).

That's the very reason many hand gun rounds actually penetrate deeper, because they have high momentum (heavy) and low velocity. So they do NOT create that large pressure wave (rapid transfer of energy), do not fragment and only provide in some cases mild expansion to slightly enlarge the permanent wound cavity. It is that conservation of energy that allows them to stay in motion until all of it has been transferred from the projectile to the target. The slower that process, the further it will penetrate. Rifle rounds would typically penetrate even deeper if they do not expand or fragment, but even many SBR's achieve that at closer ranges. Combine the reduced KE, momentum with still reasonable expansion and penetration suffers (unless that load is over driven in a longer barrel).

It is for that very reason you can "over drive" certain hollow points that have ideal penetration to expansion ratios but when hot loaded (+P+) to the limit, may suddenly have inadequate penetration. They expand more rapidly and to a greater degree at higher velocities, thus transferring their KE more rapidly. The problem is with handgun rounds, the additional expansion isn't really enough to overcome the tissues elasticity, but the drag is higher, so they tend to NOT create a larger wound while simultaneously suffering inadequate penetration. Kind of a sucky situation. Federal HST and Speer Gold Dot's are two of the most consistent loads for expansion, but some of the super hot +P loads over drive them and result in barely adequate penetration.

Aside from that specific instance however where you primarily changing bullet weights, taking a heavy vs a light load, the heavy load typically will penetrate deeper even if it achieves nearly identical expansion due to it's higher momentum (again, pending over expansion does NOT counteract that by increasing it's drag in target).

Momentum is thus a better predictor of penetration on average than KE pending the projectile design does not change considerably. We all know that 110gr projectiles tend to penetrate deeper than 85gr projectiles even if both are hollow points of the same over all constructions and the KE at the muzzle is the same. The combination of lower velocity (less expansion) and higher momentum both play a role, but momentum seems to more reliably predict penetration depth.

I was not in ANY way trying to argue that handgun rounds out perform rifle rounds in wounding (volume of tissue actually damaged). However compared to SBR's, many common hand gun rounds actually penetrate deeper, but have a very small permanent wound cavity, thus making them less effective. That is due to their high momentum to low expansion properties.

I am not arguing with these studies on wounding: see attachments. I'm simply suggesting momentum is more useful for determining weather a load is likely to have adequate penetration than just it's KE which people often see as a necessity for deep penetration with heavy loads.
 

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And for the record, no where did I suggest 9mm from an 8" barrel outperformed 300BO or 7.62x39mm. I simply stated that using a more power cartridge that the shooter isn't capable of effectively using is less optimal than using a less effective cartridge that the shooter can effectively shoot (tongue twister) because the fact still remains that #1 and #2 are the most important factors in stopping a threat.

A shot in the arm or shoulder with an expanding 300BO / 7.62x39mm from an SBR is LESS effective than a shot to the heart or head from a 124gr 9mm Hollow Point. Engaging a human opponent is a whole different ball game than a deer that just stands there until shot...so perhaps my perspective is more biased on shot placement and penetration depth than a typical hunter due to the nature of my applications.

But this is a separate discussion that's specific to the capabilities of the shooter rather than the potential of the cartridge, yet a very pertinent one and the reason the FBI, despite it's 10 year push for .40 S&W has now moved back to 9mm. The maximum effect is always a matching of the cartridge to both the shooters capabilities and the intended target. More is NOT always better.
 

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I have first hand knowledge on GSWs. Ive seen an 18yo shot dead center chest with a 357 fmj walk out the next day with bandaids front and back. Tried to kill himself with his dads 6" colt in front of girlfriend. Ive seen multiple men riddled with 9mm fmj with very little blood loss. 3 rounds center chest with 115hp 9mm. If I can fing the xray I'll post it. Guy was in hosp 3 days total. Had a 30yo shot by a hunter in the left hip with 30/30. Most of his buttcheek was gone. Died on the table from massive blood loss. Wound was unreal. Bullet exoded after hittin pelvis. 38 wadcutter to the side of the head and guy lived. 22lr to neck doa. 22lr near the naval of a 14yo kid accidental died within 10 min in ED. 9mm through heavy clothing or fat dudes has never impressed me. Many dont make it through to the lungs.
 
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