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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone here used the KAK Shockwave brace and tube with one of H's 12.5 inch pistol barrels? I'm curious whether that setup stays under the 26 inch OAL.

Thanks for your help.
 

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Has anyone here used the KAK Shockwave brace and tube with one of H's 12.5 inch pistol barrels? I'm curious whether that setup stays under the 26 inch OAL.

Thanks for your help.
I have not used it with H's 12.5, but i do have one on a 10.5. I think a few factors come into play for OAL. Muzzle device and the KAK blade has different lengths of pull you can set it to, it varies from about 1" back from the end plate + the blade to about 10" plus the blade.
 

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Muzzle device doesn't add into the OAL unless it is perminately attached. Same with the brace. Measurement is from end of the buffer tube and not the brace IIRC, but check first before proceeding.
 

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My 12.5" ARP PISTOL with a KAK pistol tube is right at 29" long.


That's not the shockwave buffer tube.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!
 

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To be considered a pistol doesn't the length of the weapon need to be under 26" as measured from the muzzle excluding the muzzle device (unless permanently attached) to the end of the receiver extension?

So a pistol build with one of H's 12.5" barrels would be difficult to build and come in under 26" with the standard pistol buffer tube or am I missing something?:confused:
 

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To be considered a pistol doesn't the length of the weapon need to be under 26" as measured from the muzzle excluding the muzzle device (unless permanently attached) to the end of the receiver extension?

So a pistol build with one of H's 12.5" barrels would be difficult to build and come in under 26" with the standard pistol buffer tube or am I missing something?:confused:
By definition a barrel less than 16" with an over all length 26" or more is a firearm, not defined as a rifle or a pistol.
As long as there's no butt stock or readily available to attach one.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!
 

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Thanks Semi for the clarification. For the 12.5" barrel to be assembled as a "pistol" the length needs to be under 26" correct? To be able to use said weapon during Missouri's
Alternative Weapons Season.
 

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Thanks Semi for the clarification. For the 12.5" barrel to be assembled as a "pistol" the length needs to be under 26" correct? To be able to use said weapon during Missouri's
Alternative Weapons Season.
The regulations for alternative deer season prohibit a rifle. Missouri considers a concealable weapon one of which has a barrel less than 16". No definition of a pistol, except for center fire pistol or revolvers firing expanding bullets. Since my 12.5" 6.8 is not designed as or meant to shoot from my shoulder, it's a pistol, IMO.

There is "NO" specific verbatim suggestion that a 12.5" barreled AR measuring 26" or more his prohibited.

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Thanks again Semi! Had me a little worried about my setup for Alt. Weapon season. As much as I like shooting my muzzle loader; it's nothing like shooting my LWRC ARP 12.5" :D
 

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Not sure about MO hunting regs but the barrel length really has nothing to do with whether it is considered a rifle, AOW or pistol. It is more to do with whether it is designed to fire from the shoulder or not. I am pretty certain that if a pistol has an OAL of 26 or more it is just considered a firearm and you can legally put a forward grip on it where as if it is shorter you cannot.
 

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Here is some ATF literature on the matter.

Definitions 2011
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Open letter concerning shouldering a pistol brace
https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

ATF Questions and Answers Section
https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers

I will say I choose not to comment on what is interpreted as legal or illegal, because it only takes one judge to interpret the law differently then you are into a very expensive legal battle. The odds of this happening are slim to non, but there are horror stories out there. Just want to warn unsuspecting users of the risk when dancing with these gray areas of the written law especially now a days with the firearms community under attack. Hence the reason I do not own a "arm brace" on any of my short barrel guns. They either look like a "pistol" and if they look like a "SBR" I have the ATF approval paperwork that says this SBR is legal. I view the $200 tax to SBR a gun as insurance to prevent a potential legal battle, sure it sucks but at least I don't have to worry if big brother is looking to see if I am shouldering my "pistol arm brace".

I will step down off my soap box now...
 

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Here is some ATF literature on the matter.

Definitions 2011
https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

Open letter concerning shouldering a pistol brace
https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

ATF Questions and Answers Section
https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers

I will say I choose not to comment on what is interpreted as legal or illegal, because it only takes one judge to interpret the law differently then you are into a very expensive legal battle. The odds of this happening are slim to non, but there are horror stories out there. Just want to warn unsuspecting users of the risk when dancing with these gray areas of the written law especially now a days with the firearms community under attack. Hence the reason I do not own a "arm brace" on any of my short barrel guns. They either look like a "pistol" and if they look like a "SBR" I have the ATF approval paperwork that says this SBR is legal. I view the $200 tax to SBR a gun as insurance to prevent a potential legal battle, sure it sucks but at least I don't have to worry if big brother is looking to see if I am shouldering my "pistol arm brace".

I will step down off my soap box now...
ditto.....
 

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In my opinion, it makes perfect sense to have a rifle, pistol (with the brace), and sbr lower. The pistol lower is a must have for non sbr states, and even if you live in a NFA friendly state its much easier to transport a pistol. The ATF gave approval for the use of the kak stabilizer and the sig brace for us mere mortal men, and at first said shouldering them would be considered improper use but legal, because that isnt how the ATF classifies items to begin with. Then they turned around and said if you built the pistol to use the brace as a stock you manufactured an sbr, but in reality the burden of proof is on Govco. Which, i would expect, would only happen if said pistol was used in the commission of a crime. Here in my state, i can run around in my truck with a fully loaded pistol, whereas a rifle or sbr needs to be unloaded and ammo/mags separate from the gun. When you really get down to the brass tacks of it, as long as you arent using your pistol for misdeeds, the burden of proof is on the state if they ever decide to knock on your door for absolutely no reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks everyone for your responses. But I have to say that I'm still pretty confused. My reason for asking the original question was to try to learn whether the combination of a 12.5 inch barrel and an arm brace qualifies as a pistol.

The more that I think about things tho, I realize several things. First I worded my question poorly, although I'm still curious about the answer. What makes an AR platform a pistol? Secondly, I probably should also question the Minnesota DNR because their interpretation of that one is important too. The Minnesota Hunting and Trapping Regulations Handbook discusses permitted firearms... We have rifle zones and shotgun zones.

"In the shotgun zone, deer Hunter's may use only legal shotguns loaded with single slug shotgun shells, legal muzzleloading long guns, or legal handguns."

So maybe my first question is, Is an AR platform pistol a legal handgun?
What constitutes an AR pistol?
Or how does one know?

Thanks again,
 

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If it was designed to be fired from the shoulder it is a rifle, whether an SBR or not is determined by barrel length. If it does not have a stock it is considered a pistol.
The term "Pistol" means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
  • a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
  • and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
(says nothing about barrel length. If it was designed to fired with one hand it is a pistol)
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...on-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol
 

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In my opinion, it makes perfect sense to have a rifle, pistol (with the brace), and sbr lower. The pistol lower is a must have for non sbr states, and even if you live in a NFA friendly state its much easier to transport a pistol. The ATF gave approval for the use of the kak stabilizer and the sig brace for us mere mortal men, and at first said shouldering them would be considered improper use but legal, because that isnt how the ATF classifies items to begin with. Then they turned around and said if you built the pistol to use the brace as a stock you manufactured an sbr, but in reality the burden of proof is on Govco. Which, i would expect, would only happen if said pistol was used in the commission of a crime. Here in my state, i can run around in my truck with a fully loaded pistol, whereas a rifle or sbr needs to be unloaded and ammo/mags separate from the gun. When you really get down to the brass tacks of it, as long as you arent using your pistol for misdeeds, the burden of proof is on the state if they ever decide to knock on your door for absolutely no reason.
in reference to you talking about the ATF reversing course. if you didn't have hundreds if not thousands of people making youtube videos and posting pictures of themselves shouldering the Sig brace it would have never been an issue. those people were basically thumbing there nose at the ATF for skirting around the SBR rules. people have no one to blames but themselves for this.

if you poke sleeping bear, don't be surprised when he eventually wakes up and comes after you.
 
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