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Discussion Starter · #101 · (Edited)
This shows the AFT is messed up. The engraving requirement is federal law. The AFT doesn't have the power to "waive" federal law. The word used above in an earlier post was 'grace'. My advice to anyone I care about: don't rely on the "grace" of the AFT for anything. The risk is not worth $200.
Yes and no. The ATF is messed up, of that there is no doubt. They aren't really waiving the federal requirements for engraving, in their eyes the engraving is already done. The following is my opinion based on what I've read about this rule.

The federal requirements require engraving by the manufacturer. With this rule, in the eyes of the ATF you are not manufacturing an SBR but in possession of an already made SBR. As such, unless you machined it from an 80% receiver or block of aluminum, you are not considered to be the manufacturer, but to have purchased it from the manufacturer. Let that sink in for a minute, reread it if you need to.

Again the federal requirements are that it be engraved by the manufacturer, and per this rule you are not considered to be the manufacturer. That means that the original manufacturer of the firearm, by default, has to be the manufacturer of the SBR. Well I suppose that it could also fall back on the previous owner or last selling FFL, but that opens up a whole nother level of "they're gonna shoot your dog" ATF paranoia I don't want to read about. <I can already hear those keys clacking>

Per this rule you are essentially transferring an NFA firearm after the fact. A form 4 would actually be more appropiate for what is happening here, as it is a transfer taking place after the fact. Who knows why they chose to use the form 1 instead, but they did. I'm sure some of you will scream it's all a part of the trap too, but IDGAF.

Yes, I know I'm ignoring a few gaping holes with that theory, namely pistols that were modified with braces after purchase and braced pistols built from stripped receivers. It would be rather difficult to separate either of those out when reviewing applications due to no differentiation for them on model names, part numbers, or serial numbers in documentation that they have acces to. IE: Can you look at someone's assembled PSA reciever (without acess to the 4473) and tell me if that lower was originally sold as a pistol, rifle, or bare receiver? Could you tell by having nothing but Palmetto State Armory, PA-15, Cal. 5.56, and S/N: xxxxxxxxx written down on a form 1? Yeah, the ATF agents can't either.
 

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Exactly! You can get an SBR for free out of this. If you're already in the Gun Trust / NFA world... well why not take advantage of this and get you some SBR rifles with real stocks?

Now if you're one of those guys that doesn't want to have anything to do with the NFA? Well... you're screwed. They're coming afer all of us. This is just a drop in the bucket compared to what they really want to do to us. Which is strip us of everything so the overlords can live comfrotably knowing the citizens can't rise up against them.
 

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Allow me to interject a twist to the scenario if I may. All of these six pages' worth of handwringing, and not one person has mentioned the most dangerous attack on the 2A we may be facing. IF the dollar's demise happens and they get their digital currency they lust for, they will have control of what we can/cannot purchase by that means. Whether or not someone has a brace and/or correctly uses it becomes mute at that point. Don't (for one minute) think they won't restrict the transaction once they have that control of your/my income expenditures.

Ephesians 6:12 states: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
 

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BTW, the panic peddlers he speaks of are the same crowd I spoke of earlier who were all over the net erroneously telling you that the ATF said it was OK to shoulder your brace.
 

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This is a trap, pure and simple, designed to fool you into thinking 1) you can SBR a firearm free of the $200 tax stamp and 2) you won't have to engrave the receiver. Both of these requirements are laws. This should be enough proof for you. If only 2 million people (low number) apply, the govt looses $400 million in tax money and has to process the forms for free. Take the bait and you give them the rock-solid evidence needed to require you to surrender the braces and possibly the firearm with another "rule change". It also expands the registry which they have already been creating. We're talking about "assault weapons" here, which you shouldn't be allowed to own! Don't be naive enough to believe this is designed to accomodate you, allowing you to keep your NFA item free of charge! Ray Charles can see this one!
 

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This is a trap, pure and simple, designed to fool you into thinking 1) you can SBR a firearm free of the $200 tax stamp and 2) you won't have to engrave the receiver. Both of these requirements are laws. This should be enough proof for you. If only 2 million people (low number) apply, the govt looses $400 million in tax money and has to process the forms for free. Take the bait and you give them the rock-solid evidence needed to require you to surrender the braces and possibly the firearm with another "rule change". It also expands the registry which they have already been creating. We're talking about "assault weapons" here, which you shouldn't be allowed to own! Don't be naive enough to believe this is designed to accomodate you, allowing you to keep your NFA item free of charge! Ray Charles can see this one!
Did you watch the video I posted?
 

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Discussion Starter · #108 ·
Did you watch the video I posted?
🤦 probably not

It's useless. The more logic you present, the more illogical they will become.

I do find it funny that they think the $200 is about revenue or that the ATF cares about lost revenue. It was never about revenue, it was a big hurdle for the average man to jump, something to dissuade him from joining the club. The bureau's annual budget comes from Congress, they don't care about or need the $200 aside from checking a box that they received it.
 

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LOL

I've gotta ask, have you ever filed a form 1? He can't file a form 1 for his customers. That would be a form 4, transfer of an MFA item. No one is talking about doing free form 4s.
No I have not but I am on a trust and the gentleman I buy from files forms for me. For a fee. My point being, since the ATF is so gracious to wave the $200 tax stamp, will the other fees involved with NFA be waived by everyone involved? But I don't have to worry about it because I'm not buying into this $hitshow...
 

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Since I am an 01 FFL (dealer) then no, I don't file any NFA forms for anyone. I have filed a few for myself though. If you would rather believe the panic mongers who are only out there to get clicks so they get monetized then that is up to you. Everything that was said by this guy made perfect sense to me.
 

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I don't watch Boob Tube videos for information. I'm no expert on forms of any kind. I pay someone knowledgeable to handle the trust items for me. It's obvious to me that something is sideways about this "opportunity". Do as you see fit. I'm in a holding pattern with no worries. Shalom to you!
 

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I don't watch Boob Tube videos for information. I'm no expert on forms of any kind. I pay someone knowledgeable to handle the trust items for me. It's obvious to me that something is sideways about this "opportunity". Do as you see fit. I'm in a holding pattern with no worries. Shalom to you!
I'm not doing anything. I don't own any AR pistols with or without braces. I knew all along that they were not legal to shoot from the shoulder so why bother? I have a couple of SBRs, one of them is my 6.8 the other a 10/22 with 10" barrel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
No I have not but I am on a trust and the gentleman I buy from files forms for me. For a fee. My point being, since the ATF is so gracious to wave the $200 tax stamp, will the other fees involved with NFA be waived by everyone involved? But I don't have to worry about it because I'm not buying into this $hitshow...
Then you aren't talking about ATF fees, you are talking about service fees charged by someone performaing a service for you. WTF would you even ask about that being waived, they are still performing a service for you.

Also, if you're BUYING from him, then he's doing a Form 4 for transfer, not a Form 1 for making. They are not the same thing.

What's that meme phrase going around these days. Something like: "Tell me you don't know what you're talking about, without telling me that you don't know what you're talking about."

Your money, your items, your trust. Feel free to do with it as you wish, but please don't jump in here acting like you know what you're talking about when you so obviously don't.
 

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I don’t know if saying the ATF is trying to trick us is fair in this case . The ATF bent over backwards to keep from making a negative ruling on braces and even said occasional / accidental shouldering wasn’t a crime . I’m of the opinion some AR pistol owners kept flicking poo at the ATF with videos and forum posts and forced them to get their “legal department “ to come up with new guidelines . The part I get confused about and wish someone would explain is the claim that if you go for the free SBR stamp you have to keep the gun as it was submitted . So unlike my SBR lower I can’t switch calibers or barrel lengths . Also I see it posted I would not be able to put it in a trust unless it already is in a trust . Why would it be in a trust if it was not a SBR / or have a suppressor pinned? Does that mean after I die no one can legally own it?
 

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When the NFA was shoved down America's throat the $200 was equal to about $11,000 today (or more due to our NON-Inflation currently not going on).
 
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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
@elvisfranks2804 We are of similar minds on the first part of your post, but what I quoted is part of why I made the thread. I had the same or similar questions regarding things I'd read about this rule.

The part I get confused about and wish someone would explain is the claim that if you go for the free SBR stamp you have to keep the gun as it was submitted.
I read and heard the same regarding this new rule prior to making this thread and was really looking for clarification on that. What I read was not so much that the caliber or barrel lengths couldn't be changed, but that the brace could never be changed and a few people also construing it to mean calibers and barrels as well. It has always been acepted practice that one can change caliber and barrel lengths (staying legal) on any AR pistol, rifle, or SBR. Even the ATF has said in the past that calibers and barrel lengths can be swapped around on SBRs, they would appreaciate notification but it is not required. I've even seen a few claims that people were told by the ATF to stop reporting changes to caliber and barrel length because it was unnecesary and created extra workload. Something along the lines of perminant changes are required to be updated, but due to the modularity of an AR no change is considered to be perminant and there is no requirement in the NFA requiring updates to configuration.

I finally found an answer straight from the horses mouth on the braces. Essentially the FAQ on the ATF page says that once registered you can change to a stock and modify how you like. That if you change the length to notify the NFA, but it's also been stated elsewhere that notification is not actually required by the NFA.

Also I see it posted I would not be able to put it in a trust unless it already is in a trust.
To register it as an SBR belonging to the trust, it must be in possession of the trust when the final rule is published. They are going to require "evidence" that the pistol was a possession of the trust at that time. There is not a good explination of what the evidence is. this is supposedly what the site says about the evidence:

"This evidence will generally include the signed, dated, and notarized terms of the trust or trust schedules that list or provide a description of the property held in trust."

The terms of my trust are the main trust document and it is notarized. It is written such that it does not include or use a trust schedule, it uses assignment of property forms. Those assignment of property forms are not required to be notorized, they never have been with previous form 1 filings, and it specifically says not required on the form. As such when items were added to the trust in years past they would not have been notarized. In regards to the trust, there is no other paperwork required to make something a possession of the trust.

I sent in to my gun trust lawer yesterday asking their opinion about this evidence. Likely due to the excessive inqueries regarding to this rule, they have not yet replied. If I don;t hear somethin in the next day or two I'll be calling.

If it is not in the trust before the publishing of the final rule, it can still be added to the trust it just won't be free. One option would be to register it in your name for free during this amnesty period, then pay the $200 stamp to transfer it into the trust through a form 4. Another option would be to first ditch the brace and keep it as a pistol, next "give" the pistol to the trust, then the trust can file a form 1 and pay the $200 making tax to register it as an SBR.

Why would it be in a trust if it was not a SBR / or have a suppressor pinned? Does that mean after I die no one can legally own it?
Lots of reasons. Many of them dealing with the law. Also for some of the same reasons that one would want it for NFA items. I like the idea that if it is already established what will happen to items in the trust if something happens to me.

If something happens and I get perminently incapacitated or die, with the trust I get to say exactly where what possessions in the trust will go. They are protected from having anyone fight over them or contesting a will. They are in a trust with the destination established. If that happens and the remaining trust members decide to change things, then it's on them. Since I don't have kids everything is currently set to fo to my father. When my neice (and/or nephew if I get one) gets a little older and shows interest in firearms, she will be added as the sole benefactor. With at established should anything happen to me everything will go to her and the other trust members will have to keep those items for her until she becomes of legal age to possess them.

Or lets look at a legal side. Lets say I get an angry ex that decides to leverage red flag laws against me. Unfortunately those laws are grounds for confiscation even if it is supposed to be temporary. I don't feel comfortable with a stranger taking possession of my guns until everything gets cleared up, never know what might get misplaced and you'd have little recourse if that happened or they were used and abused suring that time. With the trust I may be separated from my firearms for a period, but since they would have to be placed in the care of other trust members I know that they are safe and being cared for. Not that any of that is likely to happen since I don't date, but these days you don't have to touch a person to be accused being a rapist or abusive lover. Accuzation is all it takes to trigger those laws and I almost thing the taint of the accuzation is worse than the punishment for guilt.

You don;t have to have a trust to pass an SBR or other NFA item on to a loved one, it's just that they wouldn't be able to take immediate possession of those items. If they are a member of the trust containing the item they can take possession immediately upon your death. If there is not trust or they are not in the trust they cannot take possession until they go through the necessary steps with the ATF to possess, essentially a form 4 transfer. In the interim the NFA item would need to be stored with someone that can legally possess that item, be it a trust member or an intermediary. I wouldn't start a trust for the purpose of holding non-NFA items, but if you have it already it can make sense. I already had trust for NFA items when all the red flag and brace stuff started getting blown up a few years ago, so it made sense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #119 ·
When the NFA was shoved down America's throat the $200 was equal to about $11,000 today (or more due to our NON-Inflation currently not going on).
If they had actually intended it to raise revenue the tax would have been set lower initially adjust over time. Think about it every other tax that was set to raise revenue is set at a reasonable (reasonable as any tax can be) level, generally based on a percentage of some value, and designed to be adjusted as needs arize. Instead this was set at an extremely high initial price and required to remain fixed. Today most of us can earn $200 in a couple of hours and each of our bills is close to that or higher, back then that was a couple months worth of pay. It might have taken a year or more to save up $200 for a tax stamp.

Like I said the tax wasn't about raising revenue. They didn't want people to do it is the reason they set the price so high relative to the time period. It was a discouragement. They wanted it to be out of reach for the average joe. They did a good job of creating a stigma that lasted.
 

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I don’t know if saying the ATF is trying to trick us is fair in this case . The ATF bent over backwards to keep from making a negative ruling on braces and even said occasional / accidental shouldering wasn’t a crime . I’m of the opinion some AR pistol owners kept flicking poo at the ATF with videos and forum posts and forced them to get their “legal department “ to come up with new guidelines . The part I get confused about and wish someone would explain is the claim that if you go for the free SBR stamp you have to keep the gun as it was submitted . So unlike my SBR lower I can’t switch calibers or barrel lengths . Also I see it posted I would not be able to put it in a trust unless it already is in a trust . Why would it be in a trust if it was not a SBR / or have a suppressor pinned? Does that mean after I die no one can legally own it?
My understanding is that once registered as SBR it is the same as your other SBRs meaning you can swap calibers as long as you keep the original upper so that it can be put back to original (as registered). If it is a permanent change then you should notify ATF but otherwise swap it around as you please.
 
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