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Ok let me ask a question, and sorry if this was covered and I missed it:

Why the fuck would I keep a pistol brace on a PISTOL that has been turned into an SBR that is form one?

And as far as keeping it legal... why not just remove the pistol brace and have the buffer tube only? There, done, legal? Figure out what to do with it later, get it registered as an SBR or whatever.
 

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Ok let me ask a question, and sorry if this was covered and I missed it:

Why the fuck would I keep a pistol brace on a PISTOL that has been turned into an SBR that is form one?

And as far as keeping it legal... why not just remove the pistol brace and have the buffer tube only? There, done, legal? Figure out what to do with it later, get it registered as an SBR or whatever.
If your going to go the SBR route there isn't really an advantage to keeping it with a brace IMO. As soon as I did the paper work to go from pistol to SBR a couple of years ago I planned to switch to a rifle stock. had the parts waiting for my stamp to make the actual configuration changes.
 

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Someone is going to eventually get burned and become a test case for a pool noodle because that's how far this is going to go . I read what was sent to FFLs in 3 states it is plain that it will be a discretionary call by whomever is looking at the device as to whether or not it might be a comfortable shoulder placement. There in is the problem. I work in a place with this girl that is 4'10" and I'd be surprised if she weighs 75# , a Mares leg with a slip on pad would make a great woods rifle for her or even a carbine 92' but if she has over an 11" LOP I'd be really surprised as far as a well fitted stock goes . I have a close friend that's been scoped at least 6-7 times with a near 14" and it's almost a certainty under 12-3/4" . Now that I know how those deep crescent butts are supposed to be shot they are actually pretty pleasant to shoot .

So now we're back to what a 3" pool noodle that Arnold pinches between his elbow and biceps is obviously a brace but if the little bit of nothing I see at work does it it's a stock , and it may well be the only way short of fairly extensive modification to get a stock short enough.

I guess my problem with all of this comes back to if I put a 24" barrel on a Contender, SAA or some other pistol or I stick the FCG in a device that is a rifle/carbine design that's all well and good but if I stick too much support on a pistol with an extended recoil everyone is going to jail .
If I buy a 110 based Striker build bottom metal for an BAR design mag and stick a 24" light target 6.5×300 Gibbs barrel on it is it a rifle or a pistol ....... Right it's a pistol because the action was sold as a Striker .

You buy a Contender based arm as an other or a pistol and can swap whatever barrel you want to on it as long as you don't have the butt stock on it with less than a 16/18" barrel installed . If for some reason reason you bought it as an other with a butt stock and score a few super 14 barrels before you get the pistol grip you have shown intent and you may be showing intent even if you have both a pistol and rifle type receiver .

Today this applies specifically to the Armalite Stoner design next year not so much .
 

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Discussion Starter · #85 ·
Ok let me ask a question, and sorry if this was covered and I missed it:

Why the fuck would I keep a pistol brace on a PISTOL that has been turned into an SBR that is form one?

And as far as keeping it legal... why not just remove the pistol brace and have the buffer tube only? There, done, legal? Figure out what to do with it later, get it registered as an SBR or whatever.
Maybe you missed it. The question wasn't if one could keep the brace on it, but if one were required to keep the brace on it. As posted in a previous reply, the ATF faq clears up that it is not required.

If one is going to SBR it any way, why not take advantage of the grace period to register it. Submit the paperwork, wait for approval. In the unlikely event that it isnt approved, destroy the brace. There, done, legal. Same outcome and you saved $200 per submission.

Someone is going to eventually get burned and become a test case for a pool noodle because that's how far this is going to go . I read what was sent to FFLs in 3 states it is plain that it will be a discretionary call by whomever is looking at the device as to whether or not it might be a comfortable shoulder placement. There in is the problem. I work in a place with this girl that is 4'10" and I'd be surprised if she weighs 75# , a Mares leg with a slip on pad would make a great woods rifle for her or even a carbine 92' but if she has over an 11" LOP I'd be really surprised as far as a well fitted stock goes . I have a close friend that's been scoped at least 6-7 times with a near 14" and it's almost a certainty under 12-3/4" . Now that I know how those deep crescent butts are supposed to be shot they are actually pretty pleasant to shoot .

So now we're back to what a 3" pool noodle that Arnold pinches between his elbow and biceps is obviously a brace but if the little bit of nothing I see at work does it it's a stock , and it may well be the only way short of fairly extensive modification to get a stock short enough.

Your whole reply makes very little sense to me, but I'm going to try to understand it.

Maybe it is up to the agent to make the call, but I would imagine that those agents have been given guidelines on what to consider and the AFT has put out a document containing a widerange of examples. Those examples make it pretty clear what will be considered to be an SBR. Besides if the agent makes the determination that your firearm is not an SBR, they have to give a written response stating as much. With that response it would be difficult for them to come after you at a later time for the same firearm and if they tried you'd easily win in court with their own documentation thrown back at them.

Were not talking about a mares leg here, we're talking about AR pistols with braces and the rule is about pistols with braces in general. A mares leg might get classified as a pistol, but it doesn't have a brace to even consider. A buttpad is designed to be a buttpad, it is designed to be shouldered. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If your co-worder attached a slip-on pad to the stock of a mares leg they would be redesigning it to be fired from the shoulder which would turn it into an SBR. Since the mares leg is usually around 24" (if my google skills are working) adding a slip on pad may increase its length enough to cause reclassification and other issues, but IMO that would be secondary to installing a butpad making it an SBR. I don't even know what you're talking about with the rest of that paragraph, but it doesn't appear to be a mare's leg.

What? What's Arnold squeezing a pool got to do with anything? You can't make a stock short enough, ITS A STOCK! What the mare's leg has isn't considered to be a stock it's considered to be a grip. Do you even know what you are attempting to talk about here? Slow down, use more words, and explain.

I guess my problem with all of this comes back to if I put a 24" barrel on a Contender, SAA or some other pistol or I stick the FCG in a device that is a rifle/carbine design that's all well and good but if I stick too much support on a pistol with an extended recoil everyone is going to jail .
Umm... What's an extended recoil supposed to be?

The Contender, SSA, and other pistols are pistols. It's perfectly legal to put longer barrels on pistols. It's legal and aceptable to convert a pistol into a rifle, then back into a pistol. What is the question or issue here?

Before someone says it, by legal I mean in compliance with NFA/ATF rules. Whether you feel that is constitutional or not is irrelivant here.

If I buy a 110 based Striker build bottom metal for an BAR design mag and stick a 24" light target 6.5×300 Gibbs barrel on it is it a rifle or a pistol ....... Right it's a pistol because the action was sold as a Striker .
No, it's a pistol because it was sold as a pistol AND it does not have a stock. If you took that combination and attached a stock it would become a rifle. If you remove the stock it returns to being a pistol. If you left the stock attached and reinstalled the short factory (or other <16") barrel, it would become an SBR.

Come on now, this is all well established and not that difficult in uderstand.

You buy a Contender based arm as an other or a pistol and can swap whatever barrel you want to on it as long as you don't have the butt stock on it with less than a 16/18" barrel installed . If for some reason reason you bought it as an other with a butt stock and score a few super 14 barrels before you get the pistol grip you have shown intent and you may be showing intent even if you have both a pistol and rifle type receiver .
See above. Again, pistol, to rifle, back to pistol is legal and accepted. If a complete firearm is sold/transfered to you with a stock then it is not a pistol, it is a rifle, as such the rest of this is moot.

Lets say that you purchase a Contender RIFLE from a dealer and then "score a few super 14 barrels", if you do not also own a pistol then this can be used to show constructive intent and is illegal. Even if you purchase a pistol grip it is still illegal. You can't convert a rifle to a pistol.

Now if you purchase a Contender PISTOL you can score a few long (16" or greater) barrels and be perfectly legal, then you can also buy a stock and convert it into a rigle as you desire. Unless you also own a Contender Rifle I would recommend not purchasing the stock until after taking possession of the barrel, otherwise constructive intent could also be shown.

If you have both the Contender pistol and rifle, you are perfectly legal to own what ever partys and acessories you want. They will not attempt to prove constructive intent and would fail if they did. I'm pretty certain that battle has already been played out in court and the ATF lost their ass. Just don't assemble them in an illegal configuration, that would be giving them hard evidence which is a different story than intent.

If you purchased a complete firearm, it had both a stock and barrel less than 16", it was not sold as an SBR, and you did not have an approved form 4, then you are in illegal possession of an illegally purchased SBR.

Today this applies specifically to the Armalite Stoner design next year not so much .
No, today this applies to any pistol equipped with a brace. Doesn't matter if it's AR, AK, Glock, Ruger Charger, or what ever else. This applies to any pistol with a brace. The people talking about this are using the same tactics that the ATF and Demoncrats use to drum up support for making more gun control. AR's are just the ones being talked about because of the popularity and panic. Focusing on the AR drums up the views and therefore increases the ad and subscription revenue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #86 ·
No one ruined it for anyone. It's the governement, plain and simple. Everyone knew what was going to happen with these braces.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. When braces were first introduced they were a good thing and used properly. It was people abusing them to skirt the rules that caused the government to take these steps. Yes, I knew this was likely coming a few years ago, but it was as a result of guntubers posting videos blatantly using them to circumvent the rules.

If anyone is "ruining" anything, it's the human garbage out there using AR-15's to murdering others.
FIFY

You were starting to sound like the AWB crowd there. I know you don't mean it that way but it comes awful close to blaming it on the AR, as if the AR wasn't available then they wouldn't be murdering. All of us here know that AR's are by far in the minority for tools used to commit homicides, it's just a "scarry gun" that catches all the blame. At times even when it wasn't involved.
 

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If one is going to SBR it any way, why not take advantage of the grace period to register it. Submit the paperwork, wait for approval. In the unlikely event that it isnt approved, destroy the brace. There, done, legal. Same outcome and you saved $200 per submission.
If it's denied, you have already given them the proof that you have it in your possession already, and they will take enforcement action.

From a GOA lawyer:

 

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Discussion Starter · #89 · (Edited)
If it's denied, you have already given them the proof that you have it in your possession already, and they will take enforcement action.

whatever... Saw it the other day. Yes I actually watched that one, not mistaking it for another video. People spreading panick to drum up support. Life in fear if you like.

Show me where it says in writing that they will take enforcement action if the application is denied. The information in that video came via word of mouth from an agent/representative that the video clearly says did not know what he was talking about. They were put on the spot and trying to respond to questions that they did not understand or know the answers to.

If you think that's what is actually going to happen, then you might as well turn over all your guns and start digging the grave for your dog. If that is what the future holds then you're already at risk of them coming after you for any number of things anyway, legitimate or not.

"Oh, he bought an oil filter. He must be maing an illegal silencer, we need to raid. Nobody cares that he has 6 cars sitting in the yard and bought 5 quarts of oil with it. Somebody, make sure you shoot the dog on the porch on the way in."

God... Thank you for not making me a paranoid individual like these people.
 

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I think the point was that the letters sent to FFLs leaves room for a whole lot of misuse .

I absolutely understand that lots of platforms have been sold as one thing but they are very easy to be either deliberately or innocently without any intent use inappropriately . I've seen a few braces , I looked them up when Sig had the thing going on a couple of yr ago . The most common pistol recoil tube I encountered was simply wrapped in a spongy neoprene that presumably was padding to protect both the tube and the operators forearm during recoil . I only used pool noodle as a relatable example of oversized padding . With this in place as the version of what I read specific to the pistol destination as it relates to being an sbr the oversized padding if for example it extended past the tube 3/4 of an inch could be identified as a stock for a person of small stature . This becomes a thing in this because persons with disabilities requiring a brace that could be a stock are specifically mentioned. I'm not saying that dwarfism or midgets have a disability but 2,3,4" of barrel could be a huge difference whether it was intended to be a 2 minute form discussion or a means to an end . Maybe it's only used as intended as a pistol . People do 100 stupid things every day and never give it a thought . In the hands of the right person a little extra padding or an adjustment for fit even if it was never intended to be used as a stock or as a permanent alteration for more than the moment or storage becomes an instant felony . Obviously the solution is to get the free pass or just not have any barrels around under 16" .

Maybe I'm just bothered by this because it took 16 months of my life wondering if I was going to make the prohibited list because of a person telling half truths about the last 12 yrs of their life painting me as something that I'm not . It took this person 8 months in someone else's care to demonstrate that everything I told everyone all along was true . Just one item I was an angry drunk and drank all the time , annual household consumption runs about 24 bottles of beer , 1 liter of liquor and maybe a half gallon of wine including guests and 3 adults. So 2 bottles of beer , 3-4 mixed drinks , maybe a glass of wine every month .
Now imagine what a suspicious mind could twist a little padding into . Yeah call me whatever, stuff is going to get twisted up over this .
 

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The first letter head was shared by a class 7 in Nevada .
The second was a dealer/parts vender also in Nevada (class 3? He can sell and hold everything but full auto or maybe he has house policy and doesn't)
Legal changes have been accurate when the same letter head came from them .
I just can see 80 ways for this to be misused because they have it
 

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If your going to go the SBR route there isn't really an advantage to keeping it with a brace IMO. As soon as I did the paper work to go from pistol to SBR a couple of years ago I planned to switch to a rifle stock. had the parts waiting for my stamp to make the actual configuration changes.
Right, it only makes sense. The entire point of the pistol brace is to... make it a pistol and not worry about the NFA.
 

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Maybe you missed it. The question wasn't if one could keep the brace on it, but if one were required to keep the brace on it. As posted in a previous reply, the ATF faq clears up that it is not required.

If one is going to SBR it any way, why not take advantage of the grace period to register it. Submit the paperwork, wait for approval. In the unlikely event that it isnt approved, destroy the brace. There, done, legal. Same outcome and you saved $200 per submission.
Exactly! You can get an SBR for free out of this. If you're already in the Gun Trust / NFA world... well why not take advantage of this and get you some SBR rifles with real stocks?

Now if you're one of those guys that doesn't want to have anything to do with the NFA? Well... you're screwed. They're coming afer all of us. This is just a drop in the bucket compared to what they really want to do to us. Which is strip us of everything so the overlords can live comfrotably knowing the citizens can't rise up against them.
 

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This is actually from the fed web site. I guess it was their own words
Font Material property Parallel Symmetry Document

Takes effect 120 days etc this is the official statement of the official rule but this might not be what's entered into the federal register .
 

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Exactly! You can get an SBR for free out of this. If you're already in the Gun Trust / NFA world... well why not take advantage of this and get you some SBR rifles with real stocks?
They are also waving the engraving requirement and allowing us to use the original manufacturer marking. So in essence it is a free SBR just need to buy a real stock once it is approved.

I bet there are alot of people selling their PB for very cheap.

Reference info....
 

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They are also waving the engraving requirement and allowing us to use the original manufacturer marking.
This shows the AFT is messed up. The engraving requirement is federal law. The AFT doesn't have the power to "waive" federal law. The word used above in an earlier post was 'grace'. My advice to anyone I care about: don't rely on the "grace" of the AFT for anything. The risk is not worth $200.
 

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Personally, if it were me I would get rid of the brace or what ever is required to make it a pistol or pin and weld/silver solder (permanently attach) a muzzle device long enough to make it legal. I would not be registering it.
 

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. When braces were first introduced they were a good thing and used properly. It was people abusing them to skirt the rules that caused the government to take these steps. Yes, I knew this was likely coming a few years ago, but it was as a result of guntubers posting videos blatantly using them to circumvent the rules.



FIFY

You were starting to sound like the AWB crowd there. I know you don't mean it that way but it comes awful close to blaming it on the AR, as if the AR wasn't available then they wouldn't be murdering. All of us here know that AR's are by far in the minority for tools used to commit homicides, it's just a "scarry gun" that catches all the blame. At times even when it wasn't involved.
I know the stats and human garbage is gonna to do what human garbage is gonna do. But for the garbage humans in the government that want to take it ALL away, it only takes one murder with a "fully semi automatic assault style AR14 like weapon of war with a high capacity clip magazine that shoots bullets so powerful they'll blow your lung out of your body" for them to talk about banning it. Stats and Facts don't mean a damn thing to people that want to disarm you because you're a threat to their existence. There's this damn constitution in the way though... And they'll pick it apart every chance they get. This is just another drop in the bucket, some "Adam Schiff like" piece of shit has been sitting in a dark corner watching and plotting the next move to disarm us so we aren't a threat to their kind.

I think the whole thing is going to get turned around.
 

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What if it's a trick from the go? Get as many people as possible to register "for free" and have a change of heart. All requests denied and all submitted firearms must be surrendered, now that we have an accurate record of what you have, based on your submission for SBR, which is now an illegal firearm since we changed the rules AGAIN!
But don't worry, we're from the govt and we're here to help you!
 

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What if it's a trick from the go? Get as many people as possible to register "for free" and have a change of heart. All requests denied and all submitted firearms must be surrendered, now that we have an accurate record of what you have, based on your submission for SBR, which is now an illegal firearm since we changed the rules AGAIN!
But don't worry, we're from the govt and we're here to help you!
I think about that every day.
 
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