Midway Blemished VMax 110g Problems / Details...report here

owenslee

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 26, 2009

Mark21 said:
Kerry -- good idea.

Configuration 3 is Midway's part number 972987 WITHOUT cannelure.
The boxes also have the manufacturer's number of 22720(C) and a third number on the box of 110408.
The examples I received all have a green polymer tip.

Strange...same 972987 part number and 22720(c) number for bullets with cannelure... and without cannelure.

Perhaps the 110408 number identifies the green polymer tip and the 102308 identifies a red tip...?

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #6 · Mar 26, 2009

bedlamite said:
This was shot from my KT68 lightweight barrel just before I used the Tubbs Final Finish kit, I can't find the scan of my after target for comparison, but it was a little under 1.5 MOA. Depending on the weather, I should be able to get out on Friday for a current target. I loaded them with 29 grains of H322 in Remington brass using the old Winchester large rifle primers in the white boxes.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=972987

Great details...

OK...we have acceptable performance with the red tipped cannelure version in at least one case....with three of the five shots less than 1 moa.

And Steves' report of poor 6-12" groups was with the NON cannelure version with red tips.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #9 · Mar 26, 2009

cj192837456 said:
owenslee said:

Mark21 said:

Kerry -- good idea.

Configuration 3 is Midway's part number 972987 WITHOUT cannelure.
The boxes also have the manufacturer's number of 22720(C) and a third number on the box of 110408.
The examples I received all have a green polymer tip.

Click to expand...

Strange...same 972987 part number and 22720(c) number for bullets with cannelure... and without cannelure.

Perhaps the 110408 number identifies the green polymer tip and the 102308 identifies a red tip...?

Kerry

Click to expand...

Any chance those are mfg/batch dates?

Possible...but it appears to be more consistent with tip color... until we find an exception.

It could be both....different color from a different batch.

The 2272(C) or (B) is definitely a manufacturer's number as verified on the Midway site.
The 295995 and 972987 are also verified Midway product numbers.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #13 · Mar 26, 2009

Steve (OleMiss),

Perhaps one of your buddies in the Physics Lab would have interest in a student assignment to unravel the mystery of the "Defective Bullets"...
This would be a great extra credit assignment...

Using the box of bullets that produced the erratic results:

Weight all samples for deviation in weight.

Section some sample for the presence of voids or variation in core density.

Measure the thickness and consistency of the copper jacket.

Measure the dimensional consistency and any centerline location deviation of the tip recess.

Spin samples to measure any single plane or two plane imbalance at the calculated rpm that would result from 1:11 twist and 2300-2600 fps muzzle velocity.

Profile comparisons of shape inconstancies. Especially ogive and boat tail forms.

Did I miss any notable variables?

Kerry

See less See more

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 26, 2009

dlance13 said:
You are correct that 22720 is Hornady's part number for the 110gr VMAX. 22720(C) is the VMAX w/ cannelure. What seems odd to me are the green tipped bullets. To my knowledge, Hornady does not use green polymer tips, only red.

Hornady does make the green tip VMax for Sellier and Beloit.

What is odd to me is that several members received 22720(C) WITHOUT cannelure. But only those with green tips and the 110408 mfg. date...

Those boxes with the 22720(c) designation and red tips appear to all have the cannelure... as the number suggests.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #17 · Mar 27, 2009

I think Ron and CJ are correct. The third number variations ending in 08 are not related to tip color but are mfg. date codes.

This may help isolate the date the "bad" bullets were made.

We know that Bedlamites' "good" bullets with cannelure were made on 10/23/08.

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #21 · Mar 27, 2009

ron169 said:
Configuration 4 is Midways' part number 295995 WITHOUT cannelure.
The boxes have a manufacturer's number of 22720(B) and the third number of 112808.
The examples I have received also have a red polymer tip.

Ive got three boxes of the above. Only difference in the 112808, which I am starting to guess is a batch date. Im also assuming the without cannelure since there is no line around the bullet

Ron, I think you actually have a configuration 2 with simply a different mfg. date. Yours appear to be from the same batch or at least same configuration and date as those tested by Bushdog.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #22 · Mar 27, 2009

Bushdog45 said:
Kerry, mine are the config. 2 except the third # is 112808. They are red tipped w/o cannelure. The boattail in not properly formed and some of them have a wrinkle in the jacket on the boattail. 5 shot groups 6" to 8" at 100 yds.

OK...Steve's bad bullets were also configuration 2 with the non cannelure 22720(B) part number and red tip. Steve has not yet confirmed the mfg. date on his boxes, but your date of 11/28/08 is the first so far reported of known poor performing bullets.

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #23 · Mar 27, 2009

Bushdog45 said:
AA2230C 28.0 to 29.5 grs powder, COL 2.275", Fed. 205 primer, once fired SSA brass, Lee factory crimp. Note the "wrinkle" on the boatail.:

Perhaps that wrinkle is providing enough disruption of the airflow to destabilize the bullet. It would not have to be present on every round. Just on enough to generate two or three fliers out of 5 shots to open up a group.

Bushdog...can you weigh some of your suspect bullets to see how they compare to the 7.09-7.11 g weights measured by Mark21...?

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #25 · Mar 27, 2009

Bushdog45 said:
I just weighed 10 of them on my dillon scale and they all were between 110.0 and 110.1 grs. It's hard to tell from the photo but the wrinkle side has the boatail shape whereas 180 degrees from it it is almost straight-walled. They are not symmetrical.
This has to have some effect on the accuracy.

It would certainly create imbalance at the rear of the bullet causing the bullet to yaw around the bullet axis.

Can you photograph both sides of the same bullet standing on its base...with a straight edge standing vertically along the bullet OD?

At least if this is the core problem...it is something that can be seen visually to reject suspect bullets. Anyone with a small lathe and collet chuck could chuck each bullet with the base exposed and look for obvious runout when spinning. Those without a lathe could accomplish the same thing with a good drill press chuck or even a hand drill...as long as the chuck jaws are true.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #28 · Mar 27, 2009

olemiss said:
Well, I already sent all 8 remaining boxes back to Midway for credit, so I can't get any information off the labels. However, of the three boxes I opened, they were all red tipped without a cannelure.

The other blemished bullets from Midway seem OK and have the following on the label.
110 Gr HPBT Box of 100
513312 on top left
103108 on top right
27200B (100) on bottom of label

These are hollow point boat tail with cannelure.

Steve

Steve,

Of the three boxes you opened containing the red tipped bullets...do you still have access to the label with the date code?

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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Discussion Starter · #32 · Mar 27, 2009

Bushdog45 said:
I couldn't get the damaged bullets (2 on left) to stand upright to pose for the straight edge shot due to the ridge deformation at the base seen here. About 75% of this box are so afflicted. The one on the right is relatively normal. I think I will cull through the rest and load separately, then shoot when I get the chance. Or.....I may just sell to the H man.

The base of the bullet on the left appears much larger in diameter than that of the bullet on the right...

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
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Discussion Starter · #34 · Mar 27, 2009

RoAus said:
Ok, After reading through this discussion I'm not for sure which one's I have but here's my information on them.

MidwayUSA Blue Box container
First #972987 Second #110408
Blem Bullets 270 cal (277 dia) 110gr. Polu Tip Spt BT Box of 100
Third # 22720c (100)

They are the green tipped one's without cannelures and I have breifly looked through them and all look to be ok with no visible destortions, wrinkles or boattails out of wack. I have not weight them either and I have not shot any yet.

Thanks...
Yours are about the third example reported of green tip NON cannelure bullets being shipped with a red tip CANNELURE part number.

Midway just keeps us guessing.... The 22720(C) and the 972987 part numbers are clearly described on the Midway web site as bullets WITH cannelure.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=972987

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

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Discussion Starter · #41 · Mar 31, 2009

HTR said:
I just fired ONE group of my reloads ( 5 rounds) with Blem bullets from Midway. They shot a 5 inch group. This is out of the same gun that produces one-hole groups with many other reloads.

The ones I have, were the red tip, no cannelure. I did not want to chance a baffle strike with my suppressor. They are all going back to Midway.

Be prepared for Midway to refuse a return.

I just received this message from Midway customer service which is clearly contrary to their posted 100% customer satisfaction guarantee...

Thank you for your recent email. We apologize for the trouble that you are having with your blemished bullets. The blemished bullets we sell are factory seconds and not necessarily guaranteed to be accurate. We discount these bullets a great deal to provide our customers with a low-cost bullet to reload and plink with.

These bullets were advertised as blemished and we cannot accept returns on them. Due to high demand of reloading supplies, it is very likely that you would be able to sell or trade them at a local gun show even with the inaccuracy issues you encountered. Again, we apologize for any inconvenience.

If you have additional questions or comments, please contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM Monday through Friday and 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM on Saturday and Sunday (CT). You may also email us at [email protected]

Thanks for your business,

Christina G.
MidwayUSA Customer Service Associate

ALL of us who purchased these bullets and are having poor accuracy results need to inundate Midway with complaints and those of us in Missouri file complaints with the Missouri Attorney General.

In my own case I have over $1180 of defective bullets that they refuse to accept.

Kerry

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Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
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Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #45 · Mar 31, 2009

Here is a thought...

We need to provide Midway with a little "payback"...

I would suggest that all of us who have had problems and have been refused a return go on every blemished bullet order page that Midway has advertised and in the "review" area explain to potential suckers what they are in for... 4-12" groups and NO RETURNS contrary to what Midway would have them believe.

It might have an effect toward more honest "blemished/defective" advertising and a more honest return policy.

I just looked at my past invoices and I spent over $4,300 with Midway in the past 12 months.

No More.

Kerry

See less See more

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
68forums.com Moderator
Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
Ex-Mfg. Engineer
Ex-Tool Room Machinist
Ex-CNC Programmer
Ex-Stearman Pilot
Ex-Racing Engine Builder/Shop Owner
Ex-Funny Bike Builder/Competitor

Currently in 12th year as active duty Cranky Old Fart...

RVN 68-72

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #47 · Mar 31, 2009

I posted my comments but apparently Midway will review over a 14 day period and then decide if such a post is "acceptable" in their view.
I won't hold my breath...

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
68forums.com Moderator
Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
Ex-Mfg. Engineer
Ex-Tool Room Machinist
Ex-CNC Programmer
Ex-Stearman Pilot
Ex-Racing Engine Builder/Shop Owner
Ex-Funny Bike Builder/Competitor

Currently in 12th year as active duty Cranky Old Fart...

RVN 68-72

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #49 · Mar 31, 2009

Very professional letter Mark.

I hope it has a positive effect.

Kerry

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
68forums.com Moderator
Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
Ex-Mfg. Engineer
Ex-Tool Room Machinist
Ex-CNC Programmer
Ex-Stearman Pilot
Ex-Racing Engine Builder/Shop Owner
Ex-Funny Bike Builder/Competitor

Currently in 12th year as active duty Cranky Old Fart...

RVN 68-72

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #53 · Apr 1, 2009

It appears that the reports of terrible performance has been limited (so far) to just the red tipped NON-cannulure bullets.

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
68forums.com Moderator
Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
Ex-Mfg. Engineer
Ex-Tool Room Machinist
Ex-CNC Programmer
Ex-Stearman Pilot
Ex-Racing Engine Builder/Shop Owner
Ex-Funny Bike Builder/Competitor

Currently in 12th year as active duty Cranky Old Fart...

RVN 68-72

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owenslee

Discussion Starter · #55 · Apr 1, 2009

olemiss said:
I just got off the phone with a MidwayUSA customer service rep. She said they will take back any box of blemished bullets that still have all 100 bullets in them.

Steve.

Steve.

Thanks for the update and your efforts.

Did you recall the reps name who you spoke with?

Law enforcement officers must understand that armed citizens are there to defend them when they are outnumbered…and to outnumber them, if they enforce unconstitutional laws.
_____________________________________________________________________
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.
It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.
Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.

Retired, Burned Out :
68forums.com Moderator
Gatewaycobraclub.com Moderator
Ex-Mfg. Engineer
Ex-Tool Room Machinist
Ex-CNC Programmer
Ex-Stearman Pilot
Ex-Racing Engine Builder/Shop Owner
Ex-Funny Bike Builder/Competitor

Currently in 12th year as active duty Cranky Old Fart...

RVN 68-72

Reply

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