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Doesn't even manage to exit the block! 12in is min for FBI spec even for handgun ammunition. How is that any different than 9mm, .40 or .45 hollow points except NOT penetrating to a minimum of 12"?

So we have the following:
1. 5 years of use and multiple OIS (Officer Involved Shootings) from NY SWAT with first hand knowledge from Dr. Gary Roberts stating how poorly it performed in his 2013 Terminal Performance Facts
2. SIX different terminal performance studies from the 1990's up through 2013 on this cartridge with various loads stating it performs very poorly
3. Data literally on the FN forums from someone who tested S197 from both a 16" barreled PS90 and a 5" barreled FiveSeven
4. The data above from another person who tested S195, S197 and S198 all of which failed to even penetrate 12" with wounds no different than 9mm HP's

And I'm just some crazy copy and paste guy who has no idea of what he's talking about? Please enlighten us ALL with your evidence, show us all how much proof, all of your information, your sources, your first hand knowledge of why all of this is wrong. Show me why Martin Fackler, Gary Roberts, Pat McNamera and the tests above are all wrong. Show me the magic physics defying design of the wonder 5.7mm.

Gary Roberts assessment sums it all up:
The recent trend toward small caliber PDW’s is somewhat bizarre.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 · (Edited)
I've talked to doc GKR a few times on the phone over the past 14 years and read some of his stuff even though he is a little too long winded for me, he is as biased as they come and if you mention hydraulic shock he will go into a fit of rage..."triggered" just like you are about this little 5.7 that I think may make a light, quiet rifle to take small to medium sized game if need be. He talked a lot about the importance of the TWC but then fails to acknowledge it with calibers he doesn't like. I assume by his posting he considers the term "Hyd shock" to be shockwaves that travel through vessels and arteries to the brain and kills. I don't believe that happens. When I refer to hyd shock I think of high speed bullets doing damage as in a TWC. Like a slow pistol round just makes a hole damaging only what it touches VS a high speed rifle round that can sometimes liquify eveything in the chest cavity. Shoot a bullet into wood and there is no hydraulic action, shoot one into water, gel, animal and you get hyd action due to the amount of fluid in those items.
So Lion, do you deny that the incident in Texas happened? Deny the facts?
I've never lived in an area that had grizzly bear, polar bear or browns so I'm not concerned. I've had numerous run ins with black bear and mountain lion and I'm not concerned about them either. If I'm going hunting I will take whatever rifle makes sense I have plenty to choose from. If I think there may be human threats in the future I'll also take whichever rifle I believe makes sense. If I decide to go walk around our 60 acres on the other end of town or spend a day on a 1400 acre island that I have been hunting on since the 60s I'll also chose what I want to use. Believe me when I say I have plenty to choose from and I'm capable of making that decision, its my FN choice.
Now if you want to laugh or be triggered about my or anyone else's choice then be triggered, I don't care. If you think I need your opinion you don't know me very well.
BTW I'm heading over to our place on Thompson Creek (16 acres where I ride my dirt bikes) if you don't hear from me again I was probably killed by a rabid squirrel, nice knowing you all.
 

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Watch out for the bunnies, too!

I remember a certain poster telling everyone which was the best bullet for deer hunting based upon HIS ballistic gel testing. Did not match many people's real world experience.

Fort Hood is the ghost in his reality. The fact that NATO standardized it in 2021 is as immaterial as the fact that Doc Roberts sneered at it in the early days.

Results are everything and it seems ammo choice is very important. Some of the commercial ammo seems to be some what defective in the amount of damage generated. More options are coming to the market and that will most likely generate future FN 5.7 market growth. Times continue to change in spite of those who don't agree. The market for high capacity, low recoil rounds that can wreak a lot of damage in encounters of the closest kind is growing.

BTW, H, here is a tip from an old fart that has a lot of calibers on hand, stand up wind from any rabid skunks if you see one...they often take the last shot.
 

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@constructor, well said, but the argument between myself and you or @strawdog has been around the use of 5.7mm for self defense. Several other people posted about using it for self defense in this very thread, from the start that has been my argument against it. If it's all you have, absolutely use it. But it's all about probability and there are cartridges that provide just as good if not better probability that are not so obscure.

I never disagreed with you about using FMJ 5.7 or other calibers for harvesting squirrels and other small game. I get the meat damage issue. But that's not the point of my arguments, it's around the use of it for self defense and wasn't a survival rifle supposed to do it all? Used for both harvesting game and self defense? Now your making the argument to just use something else for self defense, which I said a while back, lol.

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S197 from 16" barreled PS90. How is that any different than 9mm HP's aside from NOT meeting the 12" criteria? Wasn't the whole point of this thread to discuss the merits of 5.7?

You don't hunt deer with .22 LR do you, even if you can under very specific circumstances. Can .22 LR or 5.7 or .22 Mag take down medium game? Sure, but they don't do it consistently and at any significant range, you got to get really close, hit game animal that isn't moving and hit it in a very specific area. There's no margin of error. That is waaaay different than a human opponent trying to take your life.

I'll leave it at that and any of us can use what we want, but I personally would try to avoid that cartridge for self defense application because of it's limitations based on the evidence I see, regardless of it's uses for small game etc.
 

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Watch out for the bunnies, too!

I remember a certain poster telling everyone which was the best bullet for deer hunting based upon HIS ballistic gel testing. Did not match many people's real world experience.

Fort Hood is the ghost in his reality. The fact that NATO standardized it in 2021 is as immaterial as the fact that Doc Roberts sneered at it in the early days.

Results are everything and it seems ammo choice is very important. Some of the commercial ammo seems to be some what defective in the amount of damage generated. More options are coming to the market and that will most likely generate future FN 5.7 market growth. Times continue to change in spite of those who don't agree. The market for high capacity, low recoil rounds that can wreak a lot of damage in encounters of the closest kind is growing.

BTW, H, here is a tip from an old fart that has a lot of calibers on hand, stand up wind from any rabid skunks if you see one...they often take the last shot.
I also remember a month later that the round your talking about failed to stop a hog after getting hit 6 times in a row, the poster was shocked that the MKZ performed so poorly in his hunt, I just laughed about it because there was a claim that "its never failed to take down game yet", bawhahaha!

Then I remember someone posting "A decade of hunting with the 6.8" despite your opinion that it's not good for medium game, that hunter took down deer up to 275lbs with factory VMax none the less: A decade of hunting with the 6.8 | 6.8 SPC Forums (68forums.com)

There are other threads with the same experiences. You know what I think? There's no magic bullet, cartridge or caliber. But some are better suited than others for specific reasons. However sometimes the differences are pretty small and people pick their favorites, you can't tell them otherwise not matter how many times someone shows that something else works just as well. But you never bothered to argue with that OP did you? Just me because I piss you off with things that you don't like to hear.

Taking game is NOT the same as stopping human threats. The FBI established the 12" penetration depth criteria based on decades of real world experiences you clearly are ignoring and have zero experience with.

Let's not forget NATO also adopted SS109 bullet and M855 as their standard service cartridge...cause they knew so much about terminal performance despite years of swearing up and down there was no problem with M855....it's almost ironic how you cite NATO as some authoritative source, yet we keep getting shitty performance from them repeatedly, in fact, if it wasn't for NATO, SS109 wouldn't have existed, the Belgian made bullet, that lead to the chain of events that results in 6.8 SPC and improved 5.56 loads.

And here's yet ANOTHER one on the SS197 and 198's: SS197 & SS198 Poor Performers? | FN Herstal Firearms (fnforum.net)

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Above is S197 out of the FiveSeven pistol, which nets just 200 FPS lower than a 16" barreled PS90. Sure, it's lethal they will EVENTUALLY bleed out, but NO, it wont' stop a determined threat very fast. Only one expanded at 1950 FPS...talk about walking the line! You won't hunt with 6.8 SPC out past frag range but you'll use a cartridge that is literally at the margin out of the muzzle....and what's worse is the bullet is so lightweight, it pretty much always veers off in a random direction...the complete opposite of one of 6.8 SPC's qualities, straight shot lines. Take a look at the Pork Shoulder shot test in that linked thread....

But you keep believing man, just keep believin' and maybe you can will it to defy physics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Funny after I sold 1000 rounds of 5.7 ammo this summer. Guess I can't have everything just the way I want it unless I build it myself and that's not going to happen. That one is a little heavier than I would have liked, kind of wish Ruger had built the Diamondback DBX that weighs 3 lbs, a little hesitant when it comes to buying Diamond back and Kel-tec stuff.
I'm not a pistol guy, never have been. I couldn't hit a squirrel or rabbit in the head at 15 yards for anything with a pistol so I would rather have a short light rifle that would fit in a med sized pack. I'll try to get one of those Rugers and the Diamondback in my hands to see what they feel like.
 

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Funny after I sold 1000 rounds of 5.7 ammo this summer. Guess I can't have everything just the way I want it unless I build it myself and that's not going to happen. That one is a little heavier than I would have liked, kind of wish Ruger had built the Diamondback DBX that weighs 3 lbs, a little hesitant when it comes to buying Diamond back and Kel-tec stuff.
I'm not a pistol guy, never have been. I couldn't hit a squirrel or rabbit in the head at 15 yards for anything with a pistol so I would rather have a short light rifle that would fit in a med sized pack. I'll try to get one of those Rugers and the Diamondback in my hands to see what they feel like.
I am liking the looks of that ruger carbine. Probably be a while before they are available to us lowly home based dealers.
 

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Lion, your argument now is that the the round is no good for self defense? Apparently, it only kills people in offensive situations? Both NATO and the U.S. military have a lousy track record when it comes to selecting military hardware.

But, that is another sidetrack in your two step. If your concept of self defense is 100 meters or more, then you have a better case even if the 5.7 penetrates class B armor at 200 meters which was one of the design parameters. The descriptions of the Fort Hood shooting and the resulting gore put a lie to any statement you can cite.

You base your bullet effectiveness on a post where someone shot a hog six times and did not kill it. I am sure you can tell us where the hog was hit and the other parameters involved but that post does not account for all the other hogs that were hit and killed. I am quite sure you can come up with some statistics to support your beliefs.
 

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I was interested in it as well. I think they need to figure out on the weight as well
I have no self control. I am bidding on one now on gunbroker. Been feeling the need for something new. Small bore is my thing. The 6.8 is the largest rifle cartridge I shoot these days. 22LR, 22M, 22 Hornet, .223 and hopefully soon a 5.7x28. I was looking into building one a while back in bolt action but never panned out. Much more interesting in the semi auto carbine form. 6lbs seems a little heavy but not that bad.
 

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I have no self control. I am bidding on one now on gunbroker. Been feeling the need for something new. Small bore is my thing. The 6.8 is the largest rifle cartridge I shoot these days. 22LR, 22M, 22 Hornet, .223 and hopefully soon a 5.7x28. I was looking into building one a while back in bolt action but never panned out. Much more interesting in the semi auto carbine form. 6lbs seems a little heavy but not that bad.
I don't have a Hornet, yet, LOL But I am the same way. One of my favorite rounds is the .204. I built an AR for it, but my favorite is my Ruger carbine as it is lightweight. They stopped making the carbine version of it. I suspect everyone wanted the velocity of the longer barrel. One thing that I learned was not to shoot anything in the chest cavity with it because it looked like a grenade went off inside and cleaning was absolutely no fun. I shot two turkeys with it one day (one shot). The first one was mainly feathers after being hit. The second one was about ten yards further along and it was not that bad to clean.

I like big calibers also but the fun goes away pretty soon. Between 8mm Mauser and 30-06's, the fun stops pretty fast. My son finally got the Ruger Gunsite Scout he has been looking for when he was here at Labor Day. I liked the gun far more than I thought I would. It was pretty light and more accurate that I thought it would be but after 30 rds, the fun was about 20 rds down the road. .308 is not all that much fun in a bolt action.

I have a Charger with a binary trigger that is tremendous fun to shoot but the thing weighs almost 7 lbs...who wants to carry that around?
 

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I shot plenty of big calibers in my younger days but with four plates and a bunch of screws in my neck and a torn rotator cuff on my dominant side I can do without them. I had a CZ in .204 Ruger briefly but could not stand the fact that the mag was not flush fitting so I sold it. I guess I am kind of anal about some things. I am also quite interested in the .17 Hornet. That is one smoking little round.
 

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I have the PMR-30 and it has been pretty good. It's documented not to like cheap, weak ammo but I have really not had any problem with it shooting CCI.

Also, I gave my DIL a S&W 15-22 (LR, not mag) and it shot very well and I never had it fail when I shot it. Again, it likes decent rounds and to be cleaned now and then. Wish I had kept it for myself. LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I like the collapsible stock, and 30 round mag in the grip design, weight is only 3.5lbs. If this was a 5.7x28 made by someone else I'd jump all over it.
Their P50 isn't bad but they should have made it a carbine with a collapsible stock, the aftermarket stocks run $300+ ...crazy.
The Diamond back DBX is the other possible, again should have been a carbine with a stock especially now that they are going after braces. Weight is okay but the weird mag design looks bad.
More than a few companies coming up with 5.7 stuff, now that the atf is going after braces maybe they'll come up with carbines if I wait long enough.
 
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