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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I am surprised to see Doc Roberts not cited. After all, he did call it a bunny slayer...but for cooks and mechanics working around a camp or base, it should work ok. It was designed to defeat light armor at close ranges-at least that was NATO's designated request. It certainly would handle home intruders at distances of less than 10 feet by anyone halfway competent with regard to firearms management. Shot management helps.

But all this noise regarding it's ability disregards the original post in the thread. Unless one lives in bear company, it is a great round for the common term survival rifle (maybe qualifying the term with regard to putting food on the table would be better). It may be better than the high priced M1 carbine which is now regarded by many as great for its intended use.

Harrison...around here the 22lr is reputed to kill more deer than legal deer hunters every year, and the .17hmr is moving toward the top of the heap these days. Of course, most of this discussion is based upon bench racing rather than actual experience which is good. Otherwise, there would not be many posts.
I remember reading stories about Korea where they said the 30 carbine was useless but the 45 pistol would "really put em down" funny thing is the little 30 carbine has 4 times the energy of a 45.
My wife chose her dads 30carbine as her under the bed rifle but it is impossible to find ammo now and I sold my dies years ago. With her it's about low recoil, what fits and what she can rapid fire accurately. A shotgun really beats her up so I'm going to have to build her a light 5.56 or maybe let her use my 300 pistol.
I've changed my mind 10 times about defensive arms for inside and outside , now thinking the best arms first since there may not be a second chance, a 10mm and SG for inside, an HK G3 for any who choose to hide behind a car if things get crazy. I expect the lefts foot soldiers(BLM, BPP and Antifa) to start rioting, looting and burning if Republicans take congress and Senate in Nov.
 

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I remember reading stories about Korea where they said the 30 carbine was useless but the 45 pistol would "really put em down" funny thing is the little 30 carbine has 4 times the energy of a 45.
My wife chose her dads 30carbine as her under the bed rifle but it is impossible to find ammo now and I sold my dies years ago. With her it's about low recoil, what fits and what she can rapid fire accurately. A shotgun really beats her up so I'm going to have to build her a light 5.56 or maybe let her use my 300 pistol.
I've changed my mind 10 times about defensive arms for inside and outside , now thinking the best arms first since there may not be a second chance, a 10mm and SG for inside, an HK G3 for any who choose to hide behind a car if things get crazy. I expect the lefts foot soldiers(BLM, BPP and Antifa) to start rioting, looting and burning if Republicans take congress and Senate in Nov.
I have a few boxes. I still see it but the price has gone up a lot in the past year. I have a Blackhawk and I am always surprised at how accurate it is at even extreme distances (which to me is a 100 yds lol) I keep telling myself that I am going to get a carbine but some voice tells me that $2k is on the high side. As they say, they ain't making them anymore.

My son has one of the new Stribogs with the five" barrel and curved mags. I have some cheap IMI hollow points and it does not like them very much but none of my 9's will shoot them reliably. It shoots ever thing else I have without hesitation and it is really accurate with no noticeable recoil and it is very lightweight-at least compared to my PC Charger. I think the curved mags are the secret but there were several tweaks made to them last year. Put a suppressor on it and it would be a perfect indoor home defense weapon....shooting anything inside without a suppressor is not much fun. The delayed roll back works.
 

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I am surprised to see Doc Roberts not cited. After all, he did call it a bunny slayer...but for cooks and mechanics working around a camp or base, it should work ok. It was designed to defeat light armor at close ranges-at least that was NATO's designated request. It certainly would handle home intruders at distances of less than 10 feet by anyone halfway competent with regard to firearms management. Shot management helps.

But all this noise regarding it's ability disregards the original post in the thread. Unless one lives in bear company, it is a great round for the common term survival rifle (maybe qualifying the term with regard to putting food on the table would be better). It may be better than the high priced M1 carbine which is now regarded by many as great for its intended use.

Harrison...around here the 22lr is reputed to kill more deer than legal deer hunters every year, and the .17hmr is moving toward the top of the heap these days. Of course, most of this discussion is based upon bench racing rather than actual experience which is good. Otherwise, there would not be many posts.
I did cite Doc Roberts above, multiple times in post #12...nearly the entire post is comprised of citations from Gary Roberts aka Doc Roberts (with the 2013 Terminal Performance Facts document literally attached to the post!).

He had NOTHING GOOD to say about FN's 4.6mm or 5.7mm, in fact he emphatically says DONT USE IT unless you want to get killed or unless your in a non-combat role that is unlikely to ever need to use it or in cases of highly specialized requirements to defeat soft armor with sub-compacts, like executive protection.

I get what constructor is saying regarding harvesting game and I don't disagree, never did, about avoiding too much meat damage. Hunting small game for sustenance is one thing, taking down a person trying to kill you or an animal trying to kill you is something completely different.

Then someone else posted that "they will just double to triple tap the bad guy"....yet Doc Roberts clearly stated in order to actually stop the threat they are having to dump entire mags into the perp on full auto at 900 RPM with the FN 4.6mm and 15-20 shots with the P90's....so good luck with 2-3 shots in semi-auto...that's what we call a Failure to Stop. Aka the threat continues activity despite multiple center of mass hits. That's literally the reason why 6.8 SPC and this forum exist, because even the best performing 5.56 loads from 14.5" barrels were not dropping threats fast enough.

A survival rifle for hunting small game trying to avoid too much meat damage is one thing, survival rifle for self defense is something entirely different. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but at least Doc Roberts agrees with me...err I agree with him. Using 4.6 or 5.7 FN FMJ loads for tactical applications is a really, really bad idea unless it's your only choice...but we all clearly have many choices right now, that's the entire point of this thread isn't it? To figure out if 4.6 or 5.7mm actually makes sense? Because you can...doesn't mean you should.
 

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Here's the thing, short barreled 5.56 AR's DON'T have enough velocity to fragment with FMJ loads. My point was you could just use a shorty AR with FMJ for hunting, then use a tactical barrier blind load like 62gr ATK bonded SP for self defense. You can harvest small game with the non-fragmenting FMJ, it's going to just ice pick like .22 LR, then switch loads for defensive use at home (or carry an extra mag with tac loads if your out harvesting small game).

Isn't the whole reason 6.8 SPC and this forum exists in PART becuase 5.56 M855, which is a FMJ ball load, doens't fragment below 2500? And we KNOW that a 14.5" M4 is only pushing about 2750 FPS...and we know that 10.3's only push that same load around 2200...aka it's NOT a fragmenting load in that short of a barrel. Perfect for hunting small game. You can use it's weakness as an advantage for a survival rifle. Switch loads for other uses.

And we all know that 70gr MKZ takes down deer reasonably well at closer ranges. So your survival rifle can do all three things 1. harvest small game without blowing them up 2. serve as a serious self defense rifle with barrier blind capability at closer ranges using 62gr Bonded SP's and 3. hunt medium game at closer ranges with 70gr MKZ...it's compact, lightweight and easy to use!

But I go poo pooed for it.

I also suggested 9mm with a PCC (Pistol Caliber Carbine), I have one with an 8" barrel and hold 1.5~2 MOA at 50 yards just 124gr ball (NATO spec). 9mm ball isn't going to "blow up" squirrels, rabbits etc. It will just pencil through like every other low velocity FMJ. But I can use HP's or Leigh XD's for defense. I get about the energy of a .410 (450-500 ft-lbs) with the 8" barrel. It's only 5lbs, folding brace, can stuff it in back pack. I can run 20 or 35rd mags. That's what my wife uses as her personal defense gun because it's easier for her to use and train with.

Nobody has to implement either of those, this is a discussion, but seems that all too often, when someone disagrees it's "attack that person" because I don't like their ideas. What a load of crap. Don't agree that's fine, just say thanks but no thanks or ignore it. I'm out.
 

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As usual, you have the ball and are running with it...unfortunately you don't know which end zone to aim for but I really got a good laugh when you said Doc Robert agreed with you.

You continue to ignore the original post and it's topic. As you have left the track on your own discourse, you might refer back to the original NATO request which mentioned nothing about tactical requirements. It was basically for a weapon for non-combat personnel to enhance their chances if put into a situation where they might come into contact with the enemy.... officers, cooks, mechanics and such. Many are not known for their prowess with a firearm and even fewer might qualify with a side arm.

I am sure you can provide the ranges, armor type, etc. at which the 5.7 failed to stop attackers rather than general comments which may not be applicable to this particular thread's intent. That would certainly add substance to your comments.
 

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Harrison, there are some interesting more recent videos on the 5.7 performance that put to bed before the .22 mag bs, etc. Makes me have a much better regard for it's ballistic performance. Even the pistol exceeds my expectations. It's certainly a candidate for anyone recoil sensitive and no triple taps required at close quarter confrontational distances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I have seen some gel test that look like it has a better TWC than a 9mm depending on the ammo. I had some of the high velocity LEO only ammo along with the typical vmax.
One of the guys that worked for me in Colorado was the handgun trainer for the sheriff and police in Pueblo. He was hitting bowling pins pretty consistently at 100yds offhand with my FN 57 pistol. Remember this-
Discussion Starter · #1 · Mar 4, 2014 (Edited by Moderator)

The FN 5.7 pistol is constantly maligned or underestimated in many gun forums and articles, often by people who have never experienced shooting the pistol. Subjective comparisons with the .22 magnum or categorization as a sub-par .223 round create confusion about the effectiveness of the FN 5.7.

Enough time has passed after the terrorist attack at Ft. Hood. The shooter, Nidal Malik Hassan, has been arrested, tried and sentenced. The media has moved on. Now we can begin to analyze the impact of the FN 5.7 and address the question of lethality.

Using SS192 and SS197SR ammunition (common commercial 5.7x28 ammo), several 20-30 round magazines and an FN 5.7 (shooter also had a .357 revolver but did not use it), Hassan killed 13 and wounded 32 people.

Many armchair ballistics expert criticized this result as proof that the FN 5.7 platform is not lethal enough because of the proportion of the fatalities to the wounded. Others have proposed that had Hassan use another type of pistol, 9mm or .45, there would have been more fatalities.

If you look at this Wikipedia link and look at the list of casualties, one can come to a very eye-opening conclusion.
Fort Hood shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), one was shot in the stomach and one was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive.
2. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots.
3. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM.

The following conclusions can be drawn:
1. The FN 5.7 is a very lethal round CQB because all 11 victims who were shot COM died. No survivors for those hit COM.
2. The FN 5.7 is a real stopper, because 3 tried to charge Hassan at close range and were stopped by COM shots.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).

In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.

The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.

It is unfortunate that the jihadist Hassan used this weapon against U.S. soldiers.

2ndAmVA
 

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I have a few boxes. I still see it but the price has gone up a lot in the past year. I have a Blackhawk and I am always surprised at how accurate it is at even extreme distances (which to me is a 100 yds lol) I keep telling myself that I am going to get a carbine but some voice tells me that $2k is on the high side. As they say, they ain't making them anymore.

My son has one of the new Stribogs with the five" barrel and curved mags. I have some cheap IMI hollow points and it does not like them very much but none of my 9's will shoot them reliably. It shoots ever thing else I have without hesitation and it is really accurate with no noticeable recoil and it is very lightweight-at least compared to my PC Charger. I think the curved mags are the secret but there were several tweaks made to them last year. Put a suppressor on it and it would be a perfect indoor home defense weapon....shooting anything inside without a suppressor is not much fun. The delayed roll back works.
If you want a .30 carbine and aren't married to it being an original, Auto-Ordinance is still making them pretty much the way they were when original. Their MSRP is in the $1200-$1300 range depending on which model you want. It would make a great companion to your Blackhawk.
 
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If you want a .30 carbine and aren't married to it being an original, Auto-Ordinance is still making them pretty much the way they were when original. Their MSRP is in the $1200-$1300 range depending on which model you want. It would make a great companion to your Blackhawk.
Thanks, Chopperdrvr. I had not looked at them because I was under the impression that current day versions were not that good. But I would like one to shoot it with the Blackhawk for sure 👍
 

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I have seen some gel test that look like it has a better TWC than a 9mm depending on the ammo. I had some of the high velocity LEO only ammo along with the typical vmax.
One of the guys that worked for me in Colorado was the handgun trainer for the sheriff and police in Pueblo. He was hitting bowling pins pretty consistently at 100yds offhand with my FN 57 pistol. Remember this-
Discussion Starter · #1 · Mar 4, 2014 (Edited by Moderator)

The FN 5.7 pistol is constantly maligned or underestimated in many gun forums and articles, often by people who have never experienced shooting the pistol. Subjective comparisons with the .22 magnum or categorization as a sub-par .223 round create confusion about the effectiveness of the FN 5.7.

Enough time has passed after the terrorist attack at Ft. Hood. The shooter, Nidal Malik Hassan, has been arrested, tried and sentenced. The media has moved on. Now we can begin to analyze the impact of the FN 5.7 and address the question of lethality.

Using SS192 and SS197SR ammunition (common commercial 5.7x28 ammo), several 20-30 round magazines and an FN 5.7 (shooter also had a .357 revolver but did not use it), Hassan killed 13 and wounded 32 people.

Many armchair ballistics expert criticized this result as proof that the FN 5.7 platform is not lethal enough because of the proportion of the fatalities to the wounded. Others have proposed that had Hassan use another type of pistol, 9mm or .45, there would have been more fatalities.

If you look at this Wikipedia link and look at the list of casualties, one can come to a very eye-opening conclusion.
Fort Hood shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1. 11 people were shot center-of-mass (COM), one was shot in the stomach and one was shot in the head. All 13 died. All 11 victims who were shot COM did not survive.
2. 3 of the 13 people who died, tried to charge Hassan, but he stopped them with COM shots.
3. The 32 people who were wounded were hit in the arms, legs, hips and shoulders. None of the wounded survivors were shot COM.

The following conclusions can be drawn:
1. The FN 5.7 is a very lethal round CQB because all 11 victims who were shot COM died. No survivors for those hit COM.
2. The FN 5.7 is a real stopper, because 3 tried to charge Hassan at close range and were stopped by COM shots.
3. One of the fatalities was shot in the stomach, and died. The fragmentation of the SS197R round can create a hail of metal shards that can cause serious internal organ damage and bleeding in the stomach.
4. None of the 32 people who were hit in the extremities, hips and shoulders were able to muster a counter-attack because the FN 5.7 must have shattered or broken bones. The high rate of wounded vicitms to fatalities was the direct result of the shooting ability of Hassan (or lack thereof), and not because the 5.7x28 round is not lethal.
5. Sgt. Kimberly Munley (base civilian police), one of the first responders, was immediately disabled with 5.7x28 bullet shrapnels to her wrist and a second 5.7x28 bullet broke her femur. The light 5.7x28 commercial ammo showed that it can shatter large bones due to its velocity
6. According to medical personnel, there was so much blood in the room that it was difficult to get to the victims because the floor became very slippery. One can conclude that the commercial 5.7x28 rounds can fragment or tumble, causing immense blood loss.
7. It took five bullets (which I assume was a 9 mm) from Sgt Mark Todd to stop Hasan. And he survived his wounds (no available info on where he was hit, except that one of the bullets paralyzed Hasan).

In conclusion:
1. The FN 5.7 is definitely a very lethal round. 100% fatality for COM shots.
2. The FN 5.7 is a man-stopper. Three military men tried to charge Hasan, and all three were stopped.
2. The FN 5.7 is a very incapacitating round, if extremities are hit, because it is powerful enough to break the femur (which is the largest bone in the body)
3. The fragmentation or tumbling effect of commercial ammo can cause a lot of blood loss.

The FN 5.7 is a very effective weapon. It is as effective as, or arguably more effective, than any military or civilian pistols in the market.

It is unfortunate that the jihadist Hassan used this weapon against U.S. soldiers.

2ndAmVA
I saw a write up on the Fort Hood bloodbath but I got side tracked watching some recent yt reviews of the to 5.7 and current ammo.

Also, I did not realize that NATO had accepted the round. Seems like it's a great smg round.
 

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Thanks, Chopperdrvr. I had not looked at them because I was under the impression that current day versions were not that good. But I would like one to shoot it with the Blackhawk for sure 👍
No problem, I am always willing to spend someone else's money. 😀
 
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My father purchased the first one we had for $12 out of the NRA magazine in the 60s.
I graduated from HS in 1960 and see i remember those deals well. 🤣👍 I wanted an 03 then. I finally got one a few years ago for a lot more but it shoots like a dream. Then I got a Garand. It needs to be rebarreled but otherwise it's in good condition. Seems like they were about $40 back in '60
 

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Straight from Gary Roberts Terminal Performance Facts (2013):

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.

”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”

Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW’s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:

A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm FN P90's has written the following--note that his comments equally apply to the 4.6 mm MP7: - 30 P90's for five years - 100,000 rounds per year through those weapons - very reliable weapon - very user friendly - very easy to shoot - everyone happy - three OIS's later and some unbelievably poor terminal ballistic performance we dropped them...quickly. - 22+ OIS shootings using AR-15's with .223...everyone happy (except the 21 dead bad guys).”

"The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm or other small caliber PDW systems."
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: �Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: �Personal Defense Weapons�Answer in Search of a Question�, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: �Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant�, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

"The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

"A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

"It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body.

"The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line�what does the P90 offer that is not already available?"
@Strawdawg you should probably read the first post yourself before you go claiming I didn't read it because I see NOTHING in there that suggests I didn't read it, it's literally a few sentences that are looking at the merits of 5.7x28mm vs. 10-22 and 22 mag:

Just like a 10-22 but in 5.7x28 with a mag choice 10 and 30rnd. I'm thinking kind of a survival rifle, maybe a break down if the optics can stay with the barrel for accuracy. The ammo is light and compact and reloadable with pointy bullet options. I know a 22 mag is close but still rimfire and bullet options aren't as good.
I think I'm the one laughing my butt off right now. If you think this cartridge offer's "great terminal performance" that seemingly defies physics...you all have at it. Talk about delusional.
 

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Ballistic gelatin test results : 5.7x28mm (FN 5.7 and PS90) | FN Herstal Firearms (fnforum.net)

Special thanks to J.K. for sponsoring this test in full.

Cartridge : 5.7x28mm FN SS195 lead free FMJ (Part # 10700013)

Firearm : FN PS90 rifle (16.1" barrel length) and FN 5.7 handgun (4.8" barrel length), as indicated

Block calibration : 9.1cm @ 591 ft/sec

Shot 1 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2157 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 2.1" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and partially spit the core out of the jacket. Final penetration depth was 7.6" and recovered weight was 28.1gr.

Shot 2 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1969 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 3.8" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and spit the core section out of the jacket. The core material penetrated to 7.9" and the maximum penetration depth was 9.7". Bullet recovered at 27.6gr weight.

At this point, the test setup was altered. At the request of the test's sponsor, the potential liability of the tested bullets in the case of an overpenetration of the target in an interior room was assessed. This was accomplished by the cutting of the gelatin block into two 8"x6"x6" blocks, placing one piece at a linear distance of 4" from the face of the FBI 'interior wall' test fixture (two pieces of 0.5" wallboard, on a 2x4 frame), while placing the other block 4" back from the rearmost wallboard panel. This setup is illustrated by the attached photograph of the test setup.

Block calibration for this event was 10.5cm @ 590 ft/sec.

Shot 3 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2153 ft/sec, penetrated to 8.0", exited the back of the gelatin block and the jacket section was recovered after through-penetration of both interior wall panels. Bullet fragments did not penetrate the gelatin block. Core section was spit and was not recovered.

Shot 4 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1983 ft/sec, bullet was not recovered, but by inspection of the wallboard directly behind the block, no part of the bullet penetrated the rearmost drywall panel.
Still looking but I just keep seeing failure after failure after failure after failure to meet any definition of the "effective". As you stated @constructor, poachers kill deer and other game animals with .22 LR all the time...doesn't make it ideal even if it's lethal. What's even more ironic is this one is literally on FN's own forum. Not one shot made it to 12".

The SS197's mostly failed to frag out of a FNFiveSevenPistol, and your only getting what? 200 FPS more from a 16.1" PS90 barrel over the FiveSeven pistol? This is almost too funny to contain myself for supposed experts in all things fire arms.

Lets look at range vs. velocity: TFB Round Table: Is 5.7x28mm an Effective Self-Defense Round? -The Firearm Blog

If a 5.56mm, nearly the same diameter but with more mass fails to fragment or expand below around 2200 FPS even with bonded SP's according to Federal who makes the ATK 62gr bonded, why in the hell would a 5.7mm be any different and one with 30% less mass to boot?

But most importantly, how is terminal performance? Apparently, comparable. According to an article I found from USCCA, Federal SS197SR 40gr 5.7mm VMAX makes a permanent wound cavity similar to the venerable Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ round, but penetrates about half an inch further than the 9mm. If that’s true, then perhaps the speed of the 5.7 translates into more “energy dump” into a target, notwithstanding the much-lower-on-paper energy produced versus the 9mm.
And we know there are better loads out there for 9mm than 127 +P+ now. So again, why is 5.7x28mm so amazing? I can't see it but as you stated, I can't tell you what to do and it is indeed a free country. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll stick to my 9mm's, 5.56 and 6.8 SPC.
 

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It seems you are the one that is delusional as you pick up pennies, claim they are footballs, and run with them. I freely admit you are the king of cut and paste but you seem to provide little actual knowledge of the events of which you speak.

It's ok. Opinions are a right we have in this country. Agreement is not required.
 

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It seems you are the one that is delusional as you pick up pennies, claim they are footballs, and run with them. I freely admit you are the king of cut and paste but you seem to provide little actual knowledge of the events of which you speak.

It's ok. Opinions are a right we have in this country. Agreement is not required.
Please enlighten me, show me any studies, something that disproves every study cited above (I have what, about 10 different sources now?). What's so ironic that several of the sources above are the same sources we have all used or quoted for 6.8 SPC and 5.56 terminal performance facts at some point.

And now, when they tell you something you don't want to hear about your pet caliber, oh they are all wrong and your speculation base don a wikipedia article is right...how crap and you think I'm delusional? Prove it, show us all of your proof because I've seen literally none.

Then I can accuse you of copying and pasting when you post it, yah know cause there's so many other ways to present information on a forum....
 
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