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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just like a 10-22 but in 5.7x28 with a mag choice 10 and 30rnd. I'm thinking kind of a survival rifle, maybe a break down if the optics can stay with the barrel for accuracy. The ammo is light and compact and reloadable with pointy bullet options. I know a 22 mag is close but still rimfire and bullet options aren't as good.
 

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Just like a 10-22 but in 5.7x28 with a mag choice 10 and 30rnd. I'm thinking kind of a survival rifle, maybe a break down if the optics can stay with the barrel for accuracy. The ammo is light and compact and reloadable with pointy bullet options. I know a 22 mag is close but still rimfire and bullet options aren't as good.
That would be a slick rifle. My dad has a ruger 77/357. It's light weight and is fun to shoot. He recently picked up an iq munitions 9 round magazine for it. It feeds better than the factory mags. If ruger could could get a 5.7 rifle worked out I would probably pick one up. I have been looking at the cmmg 5.7 upper conversion but it wouldn't be as light and handy as the rifle you are describing.
 

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Not the same but about 150 times easier .
Stress the action for 22 mag , convert the bolt to CF , and stick a .251 barrel to it in 25 ACP the rim is all most.the same as 22 mag and there's only .025 difference in the body dia . Case length is the same as 22 LR and has the same operating pressure as the 22 mag .
Factory ammo would be a deal breaker but for the hand loader at 2500 rounds per lb of powder and 50 gr bullets ..... It's a twin to the LR and would probably fit 45 rounds in a 50 rd RF box . Of course it cold be stretched out closer to mag length and hopped up a little bit to say 25kpsi and long enough to keep it out of the shorter mags it would still be stupid cheap to load , quiet , and formidable . Can you see a 50 round mag for a 10/22 mag ?
 

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Have you guys read the 2013 Terminal Performance Facts by Gary Roberts? They detail documented reports of the horrific failures of 5.7mm...repeatedly...as far as I know almost all ammunition for FN 5.7 is FMJ.

The teams using the P90s dumped them all because they had to hose the bad guys with 15~20 rounds to drop them and that was on full auto. The 4.7mm PDWs were even worse, they were literally doing mag dumps of up to 30 rounds to take down one terrorist. By the time they dropped that first guy, anyone else in the room had already started to engage the entry guy and now he was having to reload = bad situation.

Unless there's some good SPs or frag loads out there in that cartridge now, it's an absolutely terrible cartridge in terms of terminal performance. Survival rifle is right...cause whatever you shoot with it is very likely to...survive.
 

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I guess they'll kill a rabbit or squirrel.
Lol, at short range, they will kill a lot of things including home intruders. A double or triple tap will insure results. It's original military purpose was not as a battle carbine at any rate.

Now that Palmetto has stated they are going to produce more affordable ammunition, it may become even more popular.
 

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Lol, at short range, they will kill a lot of things including home intruders. A double or triple tap will insure results. It's original military purpose was not as a battle carbine at any rate.

Now that Palmetto has stated they are going to produce more affordable ammunition, it may become even more popular.
"The recent trend toward small caliber PDW’s is somewhat bizarre. Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 and 5.7 x 28 mm fired from the FN P90 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm handguns—think .22 Magnum performance. Many U.S. LE agencies that have adopted these calibers have quickly reversed this decision after poor terminal performance in OIS (officer involved shooting) incidents. The general use of these small caliber PDW’s is a good way to ensure mission failure, except for certain very specific roles, such as executive protection details where potential threats are expected to be wearing soft body armor, perhaps as a compact weapon for personnel working in confined spaces such as armored vehicles and for aircraft pilots, or for certain SOF tasks where the compact, reduced weight of a PDW outweighs the reduced terminal effects."

”When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.”

Keep in mind this is at room distances, aka like 20~30 feet....I wish you the best of luck. You will need it.
 

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BTW not trying to be a jerk, but for a forum with so many people educated on the merits of 6.8 SPC vs. 5.56, I"m quite surprised at how little is know about the terrible terminal performance of FN 4.6mm and 5.7mm...think of it like 5.56 SHORT...out of shorter barrel....and in FMJ loads....enough said.

To me, if your willing to accept very low terminal performance capability as a trade off for cheap, reliable and commonly available, wouldn't 9mm, the worlds most common handgun cartridge be a better choice (aka like a PCC or PCC-like conversion of a glock)? Or .22 LR, the most common cartridge on earth?

There's no meaningful difference in terminal performance between FN 4.6, 5.7mm, 9mm ball and .22 LR aside from penetration (obviously an area where .22 LR is the most deficient). Unless the goal is just to do something odd-ball as a fun project, ok I get that as people like to tinker...but that doesn't sound to me like a "survival rifle" that's meant to be practical.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Do you take a 9mm when you go squirrel hunting? Rabbit? Ever shot a squirrel with a 5.56, there's not much left.
I've seen a 22LR take out a black bear, not a half grown black bear but a full grown bear with a 20 1/2" skull. Back in the 70s I remember guys at school talking about shooting deer with a 22mag seemed to be the favored poaching round.
The point is that is what I would like to have, I don't need your approval. I have more 5.56s, 308s, 12ga, 9mm, 10mms and wildcats than I need even after selling more than half of what I had.
Since I originally posted this I reworked a 10-22 with a barrel threaded 5/8-24 and dropped it into a thumbhole stock. It isn't a breakdown, isn't as light as I wanted and will only fit in my Eberlestock pack but it's something I could shoot small game or birds with, deer and turkey if I had to and it's quiet.
 

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Have you guys read the 2013 Terminal Performance Facts by Gary Roberts? They detail documented reports of the horrific failures of 5.7mm...repeatedly...as far as I know almost all ammunition for FN 5.7 is FMJ.

The teams using the P90s dumped them all because they had to hose the bad guys with 15~20 rounds to drop them and that was on full auto. The 4.7mm PDWs were even worse, they were literally doing mag dumps of up to 30 rounds to take down one terrorist. By the time they dropped that first guy, anyone else in the room had already started to engage the entry guy and now he was having to reload = bad situation.

Unless there's some good SPs or frag loads out there in that cartridge now, it's an absolutely terrible cartridge in terms of terminal performance. Survival rifle is right...cause whatever you shoot with it is very likely to...survive.
Jack Carr goes on about using the 4.7mm pdw in one of his books about James Reece. Seemed to think highly of it. I'd have to go back and look... I have it on Audible, can't remember exaclty which sub machine gun it was.
 

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Do you take a 9mm when you go squirrel hunting? Rabbit? Ever shot a squirrel with a 5.56, there's not much left.
I've seen a 22LR take out a black bear, not a half grown black bear but a full grown bear with a 20 1/2" skull. Back in the 70s I remember guys at school talking about shooting deer with a 22mag seemed to be the favored poaching round.
The point is that is what I would like to have, I don't need your approval. I have more 5.56s, 308s, 12ga, 9mm, 10mms and wildcats than I need even after selling more than half of what I had.
Since I originally posted this I reworked a 10-22 with a barrel threaded 5/8-24 and dropped it into a thumbhole stock. It isn't a breakdown, isn't as light as I wanted and will only fit in my Eberlestock pack but it's something I could shoot small game or birds with, deer and turkey if I had to and it's quiet.
Constructor, this wasn't aimed specifically at you, obviously you can use whatever you want and if your harvesting small game I absolutely see your point about "too much fire power".

My response was to the claim (not by you) that you can take out a "bad guy" with 2 - 3 shots....yet we have documented accounts by some of the most experienced war fighters of some pretty bad failures of these cartridges and we know exactly why. Small caliber, non-expanding FMJ and as far as I'm aware there are very few bullet choices for 5.7mm.

Harvesting small game is one thing, but people thinking that 5.7mm FMJ is effective at stopping determined human opponents is something completely different. It's also extremely ironic that you people can be so willing to listen to Gary Roberts when he provides terminal performance data on 6.8 SPC that shows it's capabilities, but when he provides information on 5.7mm showing it's deficiencies based on real end user experiences of over half a decade and 100,000's of rounds fired....lets just ignore him.

I'll bow out of this thread as minds are already apparently made up. I can see 5.7 being fine for harvesting small game, but defending yourself against aggressive dangerous animals or humans....count me out. That was clearly a "use case" in some of the posts above.
 

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So these little rounds are best for penetrating armor, where as a pistol caliber (9mm, 40cal) would not, right? That seems to be the point.

If there's a 5.7mm or 4.6mm round that's effective within 100 yards in a v-max or SP, it sounds like it would be pretty cool for shooting rabbits or squirrels or varmits...
 

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I am surprised to see Doc Roberts not cited. After all, he did call it a bunny slayer...but for cooks and mechanics working around a camp or base, it should work ok. It was designed to defeat light armor at close ranges-at least that was NATO's designated request. It certainly would handle home intruders at distances of less than 10 feet by anyone halfway competent with regard to firearms management. Shot management helps.

But all this noise regarding it's ability disregards the original post in the thread. Unless one lives in bear company, it is a great round for the common term survival rifle (maybe qualifying the term with regard to putting food on the table would be better). It may be better than the high priced M1 carbine which is now regarded by many as great for its intended use.

Harrison...around here the 22lr is reputed to kill more deer than legal deer hunters every year, and the .17hmr is moving toward the top of the heap these days. Of course, most of this discussion is based upon bench racing rather than actual experience which is good. Otherwise, there would not be many posts.
 

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No dog here but I'd look hard at one in some platform other than the PS whatever.
It has the virtue of improving on the 22 RFs and 200 rounds in a kitchen match box . Which is exactly what a bed roll in a different camp every night situation demands . It's reloadable something the RFs don't really have going for them . If you need to poke a hole in body armor well that's what it's designed to do . The 7×57 is gasping and it wasn't that long ago that it was dropping the largest land animals on the planet.
I get mocked often for saying you don't have to poke a hole in armor if everything under it is broken and or leaking but a 45 cal 530 bullet at 1600 fps is really hard on the shooter , nevermind the 12 ga round ball that will load 8 in a 5 round tube . Of course there's also only 7-8 rounds per pound .

I guess the thing is everyone has an idea about what it takes . Maine calls out the 25 ACP as a minimum deer cartridge Georgia say a hafted spear is good to go but Nevada wants 1000 ft lb at 100 .
 
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