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Much self defense training is based on the concept of the "double tap" when attempting to stop an attacker.

Sometimes described as a triple tap....two to center of mass and one to the head.

However in a self defense scenario, I have often wondered about the legal ramifications of following such advise.

Most self protection doctrine is based on using only that amount of deadly force necessary to stop the aggression. Any more than that may be considered as excessive force or may result in the "attacked" now being considered the aggressor.

In some municipalities, if the attacked do not show an effort to retreat to a more "secure" area of the home, they place themselves at legal risk for not resorting to lethal force... only as a last resort.

I fully understand that the first priority is to protect the lives of yourself and loved ones, whether that takes one defensive round... or ten.

Unfortunately a victim sympathetic jury or an aggressive prosecutor may not agree.

Can those with Legal or LEO experience offer some input on this delima...

Kerry
 
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owenslee said:
Much self defense training is based on the concept of the "double tap" when attempting to stop an attacker.

Sometimes described as a triple tap....two to center of mass and one to the head.

However in a self defense scenario, I have often wondered about the legal ramifications of following such advise.

Most self protection doctrine is based on using only that amount of deadly force necessary to stop the aggression. Any more than that may be considered as excessive force or may result in the "attacked" now being considered the aggressor.

In some municipalities, if the attacked do not show an effort to retreat to a more "secure" area of the home, they place themselves at legal risk for not resorting to lethal force... only as a last resort.

I fully understand that the first priority is to protect the lives of yourself and loved ones, whether that takes one defensive round... or ten.

Unfortunately a victim sympathetic jury or an aggressive prosecutor may not agree.

Can those with Legal or LEO experience offer some input on this delima...

Kerry
You stop the threat, what ever that is. A perp on PCP of heroin is harder to stop than normal and they have lost all feeling and are unaware of what is really happening. How do you know what is normal or not in a tense situation.

Then, the more you are trained, the more liability is put upon you and your actions. How you train yourself on your own is something no one can really investigate. Shoot someone and you are subject to the microscope until cleared.

I have equal training to that of a SWAT member and I am now accountable for that type of response.

The price we pay to defend ourselves and worth it.
 

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Not a LEO - just someone that would do what-ever-it-takes.

In the heat of a fire fight shoot-out and under duress; in fear for my/my loved ones lives; shoot at center mass until the threat is eliminated.
In Missouri there is the Castle Doctrine Law that does not require the home owner to retreat within his own home.
The old adage applies- " I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"!
Just my opinion
 

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#1 it is no longer called a double tap or triple tap becos that sound bad now it is known as controlled pares or or for a triple tap aka 2 in the chest 1 in the head it is caled "shooting to defeat body armor ". as for the legality i know a lot of LE people and i have MP training from my last deployment and from what all the LEOs that i know have bin telling me about legality of shooting sum one in your house the is double triple or what ever is ok the only thing you never want to do is after shooting some on is drop your mag and then shoot him agen if you reload then they can get you fore excessive force.
 

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Stop the threat. Period.

However, your ability to put one in the melon of a moving attacker may not be the best.

I train COM all the time, and try not to get into 2 shots rhythms. 3 shots, 4... etc

Of course, I train the precision shot as well, but not for most cases.
 

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I think it would depend on where you are and who would prosecute the case, I would not even worry about that stuff, if I were in a situation which presented itself requiring self defense.

If you have a legit affirmative defense, I.E. self defense, then if you were in the right and shot to defend, absent something like full auto, I doubt you will have an issue.
 

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You're going to get a good discussion going with this topic, and the general answer is stop the threat with the appropriate force justifiable to stop the threat. Choose to live when faced with a lethal threat. You can also defend yourself legally if you get some legal counsel on how to handle a situation like this ahead of time. With our litigious society, having some legal advice and training for a response ahead of time is a good idea. Good liability insurance is necessary as well. Which of the following are acceptable responses?

"Officer, I put a few rounds in him, and to make sure he was dead I put another cap in his ass for good measure. I made sure that guy's not going to be a burden on society any longer. "

or

"Officer, I really intend to cooperate with you in your investigation, but I'd rather have my attorney present while we discuss what happened."

or

"Officer, I heard this guy breaking in, and my wife called 911 while I went after the kids to protect them. The guy wouldn't leave when I yelled at a him to leave our house. He had a knife and came towards me from across the room. I was afraid for my life and my family's life and had to defend myself to make him stop. All I wanted was the guy to run away and leave. He was attacking me with the knife and I was afraid for myself and my family ."
 

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"Better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six."
 

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Stop the threat, put your gun of choice away, call the police then wait. When the officers arrive give them your name & address then STFU. Tell'em your all stessed out and may need to seek medical attention and legal assistance. What you say can and will be used against you.

I respect all who are in uniform, but they don't always respect you.
 

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Lastrites said:
Stop the threat, put your gun of choice away, call the police then wait. When the officers arrive give them your name & address then STFU. Tell'em your all stessed out and may need to seek medical attention and legal assistance. What you say can and will be used against you.
I respect all who are in uniform, but they don't always respect you.
Shit, this is the same advice we are taught if we ever get involved in a shooting at work. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

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Shoot until the Bad Guy goes down. Once he is no longer a threat, then you have to stop. Meaning, if you shoot the guy and he goes down to the ground and no longer is a threat, don't shoot him while he is down, UNLESS HE IS STILL A THREAT, such as still having the gun in his hand.
 

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Lastrites said:
Stop the threat, put your gun of choice away, call the police then wait. When the officers arrive give them your name & address then STFU. Tell'em your all stessed out and may need to seek medical attention and legal assistance. What you say can and will be used against you.

I respect all who are in uniform, but they don't always respect you.
Sounds good. I will add again... have good "liability insurance". Civil suits after a shooting are common and very likely no matter how justified and righteous you are. A DA and grand jury may absolve you of a crime, but then there's the civil courts also.

Criminal Justice system.. Guilt = Beyond a reasonable doubt. A standard that can be difficult to reach and designed that way to protect our rights.

Civil Courts = Negligence, Guilt, Liable, whatever being contested = Preponderance of Evidence. Remember the scales of justice. This is it, move the scales one way and you have to pay. It's easier to prove this standard. The classic example is the OJ civil murder case which he was found guilty. Most states utilize comparative negligence where one pursuing recovery is barred from recovery if he/she is greater than 50% responsible. However if the burglar or his family suing you for the shooting can prove over 50% negligence or liability against you, get out your checkbook.

Many of these cases settle out of court for various reasons. Do you have a good enough bank account to make one of these cases go away, or what if the suit against you was successful? Liability insurance can make a big difference between a bankrupting situation, and keeping your personal finances relatively intact.

Strayed a little from your question, but many people don't even think about this.
 

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I have been told on more than one ocation that if you u shoot some one in self defense with reload you will be in more trouble than with off the shelf ammo any thoughts on this would be appriciated.
 

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Bigdog923 said:
I have been told on more than one ocation that if you u shoot some one in self defense with reload you will be in more trouble than with off the shelf ammo any thoughts on this would be appriciated.
In a trial anything can happen. The defense attorneys will do everything they can to make you look bad, including claiming that your handloads are some evil crap. I never put too much thought into it. If it is a justifiable shot, it is a justifiable shot. There are many ways you can explain yourself if you use handloads in a HD situation, such as indicating that you just got back from the range and hadn't had a chance to switch out the ammo.
 

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I think the handload thing is bullcrap. I would just say that in your experience commercial ammo has been known to fail more than your high quality hand loaded ammunition.

Guys one thing to remember, never ever say that you shot or kept shooting until the guy was dead, or you were shotting to kill. You are shooting to stop the threat, and nothing else. You shoot until the threat ended
 

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I was in fear for my life and the lives of my family members becuase of this imideat threat to myself and my family I fired my weapon to stop the threat. Now I would like to talk to my lawyer.
 

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If you can pull off a double tap followed by a head shot, while pumping with adrenalin, my hat's off to you. Front sight on center of mass---bang, bang, bang---until the threat is stopped. :oops:

"How many shots did you fire?" "Did he have a gun?" "Can you give a statement?" "Do you have a permit for your gun?" (The cop is just doing his job.)

Now, you are about to become the defendant if you are not really careful. "You have the right to remain silent." Use it. You are alive and the perp is not. It's time to go get some counseling (legal and mental.)
 

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yeah you need a lot of training and practice to do a defeat body armor (2 in the chest 1 in the head) i know in the army we did over 500 drills dry before they gave us ammo to try this with our m-4s and m9s then a lot more live drills. the best thing i can say is keep practicing til you get mussel memory you will do it with pout even thinking threw instinctive shooting it seems weird but you find your self doing it with out even thinking
 

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If your life is threatened and you must justifiably use lethal force to defend yourself from imminent danger, you use whatever tools that are available to you in that critical moment, including any firearms and ammunition, as much and as many times as necessary--be it 1 hit, 10 hits, or 100 hits--to STOP the individual who is unlawfully trying to harm you.
 

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+1 on these recommendations -

"Officer, I really intend to cooperate with you in your investigation, but I'd rather have my attorney present while we discuss what happened."
Good advice here. Applies equally to any legal situation you get into.

Then your statement will be like this, with legal counsel present of course -

"Officer, I heard this guy breaking in, and my wife called 911 while I went after the kids to protect them. The guy wouldn't leave when I yelled at a him to leave our house. He had a knife and came towards me from across the room. I was afraid for my life and my family's life and had to defend myself to make him stop. All I wanted was the guy to run away and leave. He was attacking me with the knife and I was afraid for myself and my family ."
Being a LEO for a long time now (1979) and a law school graduate/trained LEO manager for the past 13 years this is the advice I give my friends and relatives.

Now my wife, I hand her a roll of duct tape and tell her to apply it liberally to her mouth any time she's stressed, in a car accident, or other legal situations.

She does not even argue with me about that! :wink:
 
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