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Discussion Starter #1
I know now that Remington 6.8 ammo is considered second rate and should be avoided,
but I bought a bunch of it before that was common knowledge.

As I still have several cases of it I plan on using it for blasting ammo.

But the reason for this post is it is the absolutely CLEANEST burning ammo I have ever fired,
in any caliber or gun.
After firing 100 rounds the gun is cleaner than after 20 rounds of SSA.
The fired cases could almost pass as unfired if it was not for the dent in the primer.

So it seems to me that Remington at least got one thing right.

8)
 

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If you reload I would pull the bullet, weight the powder, and get it correct and then seat the bullet correctly as that is th real issue with there ammo being junk the COAL is all over the place. Actually just re-seating all the bullet to th same length would go a long way. But out of a few boxes I had a powder spread of up to 1 grain. That folks is HUGE. I checked some new stuff a couple of months ago and the powder was much better but the COAL was all over th place and that rally points to a company that just doesn't give a crap about their product and then prices it at a rat where it should shot it self.
 

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BillBond said:
I know now that Remington 6.8 ammo is considered second rate and should be avoided,
but I bought a bunch of it before that was common knowledge.

As I still have several cases of it I plan on using it for blasting ammo.

But the reason for this post is it is the absolutely CLEANEST burning ammo I have ever fired,
in any caliber or gun.
After firing 100 rounds the gun is cleaner than after 20 rounds of SSA.
The fired cases could almost pass as unfired if it was not for the dent in the primer.

So it seems to me that Remington at least got one thing right.

8)

I believe that few bad apple's can ruin bunch :shock: ...... IMO- someone needs to get fired there whos checking the machine's and the ammo batches
they got decent components and --just because few people dont check there specs/product runs there's allot of disappointed customers.......
Now there match stuff is much better as it should be ......Maybe sending some emails to them about this problem might help...
they been making ammo for nearly 100yrs ,they should have it down by now LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Tim_W said:
If you reload I would pull the bullet, weight the powder, and get it correct and then seat the bullet correctly.
I am too lazy to reload, so it will just be blaster ammo.

8)
 

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zoli818 said:
BillBond said:
I know now that Remington 6.8 ammo is considered second rate and should be avoided,
but I bought a bunch of it before that was common knowledge.

As I still have several cases of it I plan on using it for blasting ammo.

But the reason for this post is it is the absolutely CLEANEST burning ammo I have ever fired,
in any caliber or gun.
After firing 100 rounds the gun is cleaner than after 20 rounds of SSA.
The fired cases could almost pass as unfired if it was not for the dent in the primer.

So it seems to me that Remington at least got one thing right.

8)

I believe that few bad apple's can ruin bunch :shock: ...... IMO- someone needs to get fired there whos checking the machine's and the ammo batches
they got decent components and --just because few people dont check there specs/product runs there's allot of disappointed customers.......
Now there match stuff is much better as it should be ......Maybe sending some emails to them about this problem might help...
they been making ammo for nearly 100yrs ,they should have it down by now LOL
If you haven't you might want to try their 6.8 match stuff. I have had some good luck with other calibers but not the 6.8. If you have and you got good accuracy please excuse that remark. The reason for my statement is I actually have gotten the worst of all my groups from their 115 Premium ammo that I think I paid almost $40 for a 20 rd box :shock: :shock: :shock: .The best I got was 1.5 moa and that was in a full BR frnt rear rest setup with a 14 power scope

Take a look at this list below. These were short by that so called premium ammo and it was certainly more then one box and more then a few barrels so it wasn't a fluke. The ammo used : Remington 115 Cor Lockt Ultra Bonded.

MSTN
1st group: 3 1/2”
2nd group 3 3/16”
3rd group 3 1/4”
4th group 3 1/2”

Ko-Tonics
1st group: 3 3/8”
2nd group 3 3/8”
3rd group 3 3/16”
4th group 3 1/4”

Global Tactical
1st group: 1 3/8”
2nd group 2 7/8”
3rd group 2”
4th group 3 1/8”

Barrett
1st group: 3”
2nd group 2 ¾”
3rd group 2 7/8
4th group 2 3/8

LWRC
1st group: 3”
2nd group 3 1/4”
3rd group 2”
4th group 5 1/8”


Now here is the chart of how the SSA 115 OTM did:



With that said I can say the components were not the issue as you have stated and I concur it is the QC. The guys on the machines or the ones that are suppose to be checking samples are simply not doing there jobs at all. On the last batch I pulled apart by simply fixing the OAL to something resembling consistency they went 3/4-1moa. The fact is they have a spread of 2.234"-2.266" COAL There is no way you are going to be any kind of accuracy with that. It is also not completely erratic. You will get 3-4 that measure good then bam on that .3 off. Well that is going to give you a 1-2moa flyer easy. As I said eariler it did seem they had done a better job on the powder charge but the COAL was still a mess. Honestly I don't get it. I would have to see the machines on their line. How do you get say 10 out a box that are good and then the others ar all over the place. Its not like there are just 2 COALs but their is a group that is dead on then these others that have no pattern. It would almost seem like someone would have to actually try to make it like that. Then again it could be something building up in the die or something going out of spec little by little and thats how they are opening up and then boxed. But WOW.
I know there was another article on the net about the Rem ammo and they did as I did and got good groups. They found the same kind of bad tolerances I did and the same good results when they adjusted, I think, only the COAL. On top of this there are 3 years worth of posts from people thinking their barrels or uppers were crap or broken etc because of the groups they got. There was recently a post on ARFCOM where a guy with a brand new WOA barrel was only getting, IIRC, 5"@ 50 yards.

When you consider the high price they charge for any of there load ammo and the performance I can't see every a situation where I would suggest its use. But if you have it I would say if you can reseat the bullets and then you could have decent ammo. Still not worth the price though.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Tim_W,
It is a shame that something as expensive as their match ammo is of such poor quality.
I believe you in that your results are not isolated and feel it is a major problem.

I got into the 6.8 in the first few months it was available,
well before it was commonly known that the Remington had problems.
At the time it seemed like a no-brainer buying the Remington ammo, since the round has their name in it.

The other thing that is a shame is I purchased an LMT MRP in 6.8 with a chrome lined barrel.
I am going to keep the MRP and hope LMT comes out with a barrel for it that has a better chamber and twist.

In the mean time I would like to buy the best factory ammo that can handle the old specs.
I tried several types of SSA over 18 months ago, and it was obviously too high of a pressure.

So can you recommend a brand of ammo that will be good for my gun ?

8)
 

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BillBond said:
Tim_W,
It is a shame that something as expensive as their match ammo is of such poor quality.
I believe you in that your results are not isolated and feel it is a major problem.

I got into the 6.8 in the first few months it was available,
well before it was commonly known that the Remington had problems.
At the time it seemed like a no-brainer buying the Remington ammo, since the round has their name in it.

The other thing that is a shame is I purchased an LMT MRP in 6.8 with a chrome lined barrel.
I am going to keep the MRP and hope LMT comes out with a barrel for it that has a better chamber and twist. Send a PM to Constructor about LMT MRP barrels a as he very well maybe able to turn one for you. He my have to use the extension from your present one but if it can be turned from a blank he can do it. That would get you a awesome barrel as you already have the LMT bolt.

In the mean time I would like to buy the best factory ammo that can handle the old specs.
I tried several types of SSA over 18 months ago, and it was obviously too high of a pressure.

So can you recommend a brand of ammo that will be good for my gun ?

8)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Tim_W said:
Send a PM to Constructor about LMT MRP barrels a as he very well maybe able to turn one for you.
He my have to use the extension from your present one but if it can be turned from a blank he can do it.
That would get you a awesome barrel as you already have the LMT bolt.
I have read about other people doing what you suggest and it ends up costing almost $1000 after you figure in the
cost of the donor barrel, the new barrel blank and labor.

That is too much for me since I am just a casual shooter and do not really need the extra 100 to 200 fps that bad.
For now, it seems the best option for me is to find some factory ammo that will work in the MRP barrel.

I see SSA has two different loadings, commercial and combat.
The SSA I tried was purchased from Midway and came in blue boxes with a round yellow sticker, well over a year ago.
It was obviously too hot for my gun, do you think the current commercial loading is the same load?
If it is, it looks like I should try Hornady next ?
 

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We have had several (3) customers send us their LMT's to check out, we had one customer even drive here from another state to check out his system because he was having pressure issues. We took him to the range with SSA, Hornady and Remington ammunition. All rounds had pressure issues in his weapon, flatten primers, extractor pull marks (really bad) and we also had a few blew primers. All the weapons we had tested had a timing issue and showed signs of over pressure even with our commercial loads. The one guy who drove here had sent his weapon back several times for them to address the issue, final he just replaced the barrel and all his problems went away.

We do not not if this is just a bad patch of barrels or a design issue.


Art-SSA
 

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Could part of the pressure problems be that LMT is using a carbine gas system and not a mid-length one?

Could that LMT barrel be rechambered in SPC2 (by PauloSantos or someone else)?
 

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Tim_W said:
I know now that Remington 6.8 ammo is considered second rate and should be avoided,
but I bought a bunch of it before that was common knowledge.


There was recently a post on ARFCOM where a guy with a brand new WOA barrel was only getting, IIRC, 5"@ 50 yards.


Jesus...I think me trowing the bullet i can get better then 5" LOL :shock: --poor bastard he must of felt realy bad that day till he figured out it was the QC of the remm ammo :? - I love the tradition of nearly 200yrs of Remmington but, they should be ashamed for putting ammo out like that..
 

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Discussion Starter #12
billclo said:
Could part of the pressure problems be that LMT is using a carbine gas system and not a mid-length one?

Could that LMT barrel be rechambered in SPC2 (by PauloSantos or someone else)?
I am not having any pressure problems at all with the Remington ammo.
It is 100% reliable and clean burning, just not accurate.

As far as I know no one wants to rechamber a chrome lined barrel since it is very hard on the reamers.

8)
 

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BillBond said:
billclo said:
Could part of the pressure problems be that LMT is using a carbine gas system and not a mid-length one?

Could that LMT barrel be rechambered in SPC2 (by PauloSantos or someone else)?
I am not having any pressure problems at all with the Remington ammo.
It is 100% reliable and clean burning, just not accurate.

As far as I know no one wants to rechamber a chrome lined barrel since it is very hard on the reamers.

8)
I'll rechamber it ot the SPCII Chamber, even if it has the chrome-lined barrel.
 

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kalwasart said:
We have had several (3) customers send us their LMT's to check out, we had one customer even drive here from another state to check out his system because he was having pressure issues. We took him to the range with SSA, Hornady and Remington ammunition. All rounds had pressure issues in his weapon, flatten primers, extractor pull marks (really bad) and we also had a few blew primers. All the weapons we had tested had a timing issue and showed signs of over pressure even with our commercial loads. The one guy who drove here had sent his weapon back several times for them to address the issue, final he just replaced the barrel and all his problems went away.

We do not not if this is just a bad patch of barrels or a design issue.


Art-SSA

On CL barrel if the chamber is rough then you will see what appears to be typical over pressure signs with ammo that is even well below normal operating pressure even below 50K.

It seems many producing barrels or handling the tech issues don't have a basic understanding of what happens in a chamber during the ignition sequence of the cartridge.

The primer is hit, the cartridge, if not already, is now pushed forward against the chamber shoulder. The case walls blow out to seal the chamber. The primer protrudes out of the primer pocket from back pressure thru the flash hole(completely normal)and seats against the bolt face. Normally the case would then stretch some about 0.001 an partially re-seat the primer and also would start to releases from the chamber walls and then fully seat back against the bolt face and in doing so fully re-seating the primer. But IF the chamber walls are extremely rough combined with the fact factory ammo is set to give max headspace tolerance and most chambers are set in the middle, the the primer never re-seats. You now have a blown primer. This only takes enough pressure to push the primer out which is much lower then pressures of normal loads. Not only this but becasue the case head has been left unsupported the case head grows in diameter and in length as it stretches rather then being released from the side walls. This leaves you with all the tell tale signs of high pressure without there actually being any at all. You are left with a case that has:

Blown primer
Bulged case head
separation ring above the case head
Hard extraction
Failure to eject

Normally a blown primer is becasue the primer pocket expands excessively from to much pressure and that pressure holds it to the chamber wall. In this case its the rough chamber wall causing the issue and high pressure is not needed to create the issues.

It is understandable why a consumer would think it was a high pressure issue as that is what the normal data tells him but a firearms tech should know what is actually going on in a chamber to figure this out

Then you have the issue of, if the chamber is rough then the bore very well could be as well, as its all one coating process. If there is excessive chrome anywhere, then its very likely there is excessive chrome everywhere. Again it is a matter of understanding a process so you can trouble shoot. If you don't you are at a sever disadvantage in being able to properly diagnose whats wrong.

I think its very telling when you have a ammo manufactures helping to diagnose issues that he knowns are not caused by his ammo. That is what I call great service. I bet if you showed up at one of the "big ammo makers" with a similar issue you wouldn't be taken around to the plant and to a firing range to see what was wrong with a gun from another maker or even their own for that matter.
 

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Tim you must really get a life. Your explaintion is very detailed and on the mark. The LMT all had timing issues also with the case ejecting forward of the weapon.

I think a problem go to diagnostic thread and or threads is in order, between yourself, constructor and Paulo you guy's have posted many things many times. A thread devoted to blowing primers, a thread on accuracy issues, a thread on how to get your wife to let you buy more ammo etc.

Art
 

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kalwasart said:
We have had several (3) customers send us their LMT's to check out, we had one customer even drive here from another state to check out his system because he was having pressure issues. We took him to the range with SSA, Hornady and Remington ammunition. All rounds had pressure issues in his weapon, flatten primers, extractor pull marks (really bad) and we also had a few blew primers. All the weapons we had tested had a timing issue and showed signs of over pressure even with our commercial loads. The one guy who drove here had sent his weapon back several times for them to address the issue, final he just replaced the barrel and all his problems went away.

We do not not if this is just a bad patch of barrels or a design issue.


Art-SSA


You are right given its 6am EST and I just got off the phone with Constructor 1.5 hours ago. :lol: :lol:

I think you have a good point as to a thread specially about timing,pressure case etc...

First a post about what actually happens when a ammo is chambered and set off.

Then how a DI system's timing works.

Then how various things effect these things and the signs you see on the case.

If it was only know how high you could drive pressure safely with properly spec on cases and AR timing. The only thing you would see would be flattened primers and I mean proof load hot.

2 most important things in an AR:

case to chamber fit
timing of th AR action

Why do you think it is that the M16 can shoot ammo that creates much higher peak chamber pressure without ill effects but th M4 can't? Why is bolt life of the M4 half that of the M16? More specifically bolt lug life. Why does the M4 need extra power springs and inserts for its extractor? Why do extractors break more often with M4s. Then compare how these same symptoms accompany any gun that ejects at an angle more then 3 O'clock to the front with its regular use ammo and also tends to have reliable function issues. Take a look at a full trace of the pressure curve. Then connect the dots. The bolt needs to be delayed from opening until pressure is lower. The above gives leades to how.


Let me go bang my had against the wall some more now. Care to join me Art? :roll: :wink:
 

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My head still is hurting, its not that difficult all they have to do is do their home work before puitting weapons out into the market place. Or what is more scary, they just do not know how things are interconnected.

Art
 

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Tim before you go bang your head on the wall, "what is the proper ejection angle for the AR? 3-5 oclock??
 
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