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Discussion Starter #41
For anyone that is recoil sensitive, I definitely recommend an AR style rifle. In 308, the recoil is very manageable and much less than even a 30-30 in my experience. I’ve had young hunters who flinch all day with a bolt 308 do very well with an AR in 308. I think they even make an AR platform in 300 win mag, but I think it is a bit pricey.
I have an AR10 in 308. Unfortunately my wife hates the AR10. 308 is still an option.
 

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I don't have a 7-08 but I'd suggest it. Check out Randy Newberg on youtube. He's killed plenty of elk with one using Nosler ammo.

Check out this thread as well.

If it were me I'd run some 150's (don't sleep on 130's though) from the 270 with a limbsaver since you have a weight requirement. Or even 308 with your minimum requirement.

Since you have the minimum caliber requirements for where you hunt those three would be your best bet. If you could get by with a 25-06 I'd consider that as well.

Good luck. My 17 yo daughter loves that 243 of hers. I've tried to get her to shoot my 270 or 25-06 and she just balks. She had to use my 6.8 the other night for the first time while I've fallen behind on loading for her gun. Shot two hogs and looked at me and said that wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I like this thing. Guess there's always hope.
 

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My wife has an elk hunt this October. We need to get her a new rifle chambered in an appropriate cartridge. Her shots will likely be inside of 200 yards but if the situation dictates, her maximum distance will be 250 yards. She is a little recoil sensitive but works hard to minimize her flinch. She is slight built and does not have the strength to hold a heavy rifle on target. She has no problem hunting, even cute and cuddly, but gets very upset if an animal does not expire quickly. Her 243 Win is absolutely not an option for Elk. She has shot 270 win, 308 Win and 338 WinMag but claims they have the same recoil, too much.

Cartridge to fit (most of) these parameters:
-max 20ftlb recoil
-min 270 cal, not just because this is the 6.8 community, it is the minimum caliber in some states we hunt
-min 140gr bullet
-2,700-ish MV, relatively flat shooting
-1200-ish ft-lb energy @ 250 yards
- commercially available cartridge, I've sworn off Wildcats and I'm desperately trying to resist that addiction

We would prefer this performance without a muzzle brake, for several reasons, but a dead elk is the priority.

This forum seems to debate more on fact then emotion, so, what hunting cartridge would you recommend that fits these parameters? Does this cartridge exist? Are we looking to hunt elk with a unicorn?
Ive been reading this thread and its a pretty good one. It sounds an awful lot like you're trying to get us to talk you into a 270 msr. It really is the perfect solution to your problem.
One last wildcat, one caliber to reload, no big deal. falling off the wagon and landing softly. Good to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I like short light rifles and am left handed which limits selections significantly. I had never owned a bolt rifle despite multiple 15s,10s and a Nextgen. I bought a Ruger American Compact 308 for $360 new, the scope on it cost more than the rifle. Put a limbsaver 1” slip on pad to get normal length of pull. Rifle shoots 2” groups at 300 yds with Barnes 150gr TTSX factory loads. Dec 2018 shot a 350 lb Nilgai cow ranged at 320 yds. Dropped it where hit with both shoulders broken, both lungs collapsed and fragments of bone lacerating the liver. I am mildly recoil sensitive and can shoot this at the bench in a t shirt. Weighs 5 3/4 lbs. plan to use it on a NM elk hunt in the fall. 36 y/o son shoots a 7-08 and recently bought a Barrett Fieldcraft in 270 to use on the same hunt. 5 1/2 lb rifle, says recoil at the bench is painful, limits shooting to 20 rds. Ruger still makes the compact in 308 for rt handed shooters, take a look.
Thanks, Yfarm. My response may sound like I'm trashing your recommendation. I am not. I am just relaying my experience. I thank you for taking the time to respond and will definitely consider your advice.

One of the problems I have with compact rifles is, when it's labeled "compact", or "youth" the quality really suffers. When they call them ladies rifles, they're just painted pink with purple accents. Savage and Weatherby have made rifles marketed towards women that aren't just painted pink. The stocks seem well-designed but the barrels and actions are mediocre.

Her 243 is a youth model. It shot sub MOA out of the box, but groups have opened up to 4-6". If I get a stock and a new barrel, that will be $700-800 spent polishing a turd. We have gone through similar with Remington, Savage, Winchester, and the biggest horror show, Mossberg. It does not build her confidence when the rifles end up shooting so poorly.

I know a few companies make quality compact hunting rifles. Tikka does and Browning makes a beautiful, no shortcut compact, the Micro Midas. However, finding one in any caliber has been more elusive than a Democrat with common sense. If we have to, we will buy a quality rifle and have the stock cut down and possibly a brake installed, but would like to avoid it.

I have two friends that own Ruger Americans. One friend says his shoots okay but not great. The other friend likes his, but trying to find time for her to shoot it, in the past three months, has proven difficult in this age of social distancing. We have considered the Ruger compact, but they all seem to have short barrels, 18". I've only ever owned one Ruger centerfire rifle. It was a left-handed 30-06. It never really shot well and sold it many years ago. I do own a few Ruger pistols and have shot them competitively, as well as, 22 long guns.
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Ive been reading this thread and its a pretty good one. It sounds an awful lot like you're trying to get us to talk you into a 270 msr. It really is the perfect solution to your problem.
One last wildcat, one caliber to reload, no big deal. falling off the wagon and landing softly. Good to go.
Thanks Madolive3, your response gave me a good chuckle! I do sound like a drunk wanting to toast my sobriety with champagne! It's probably good nobody with first-hand experience with the 270 MSR has responded. I probably owe you all a debt of gratitude for not encouraging my addiction. And like a recovering addict, everyone is telling me what I already know but was hoping for a unicorn. This has been a great discussion, with good opinions, experience and recommendation, all within a civil tone.
 

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Thanks Madolive3, your response gave me a good chuckle! I do sound like a drunk wanting to toast my sobriety with champagne! It's probably good nobody with first-hand experience with the 270 MSR has responded. I probably owe you all a debt of gratitude for not encouraging my addiction. And like a recovering addict, everyone is telling me what I already know but was hoping for a unicorn. This has been a great discussion, with good opinions, experience and recommendation, all within a civil tone.
My handguard and barrel nut should be here today. I have resized 100 6mm dasher brass and I should have a range report for you in a couple of weeks.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
I don't have a 7-08 but I'd suggest it. Check out Randy Newberg on youtube. He's killed plenty of elk with one using Nosler ammo.

Check out this thread as well.

If it were me I'd run some 150's (don't sleep on 130's though) from the 270 with a limbsaver since you have a weight requirement. Or even 308 with your minimum requirement.

Since you have the minimum caliber requirements for where you hunt those three would be your best bet. If you could get by with a 25-06 I'd consider that as well.

Good luck. My 17 yo daughter loves that 243 of hers. I've tried to get her to shoot my 270 or 25-06 and she just balks. She had to use my 6.8 the other night for the first time while I've fallen behind on loading for her gun. Shot two hogs and looked at me and said that wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I like this thing. Guess there's always hope.
Thanks for the link Shank820. That in definitely information I want. For myself, I like the heaviest bullets that shoot accurately. For my wife, I think something in a more moderate weight, to reduce recoil, would be better for my wife.

The 7-08 is on the list. It may just come down to what rifle we find available in 308, 270 of 7-08.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
My handguard and barrel nut should be here today. I have resized 100 6mm dasher brass and I should have a range report for you in a couple of weeks.
Uh oh...

I can hardly wait!
 

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I dont reload so I am at the mercy of the ammo companies and their decisions about factory ammo. I was looking for a 280 and found a lightly used Montana Rifle Co left hand that came with Copper Creek Cartridge Co ammo designed for the rifle. Had never heard of this company and started to read about their process and had an oh s—t moment. Had never considered the variability in oal in factory ammo as a principal cause of accuracy issues in quality rifles. Son has a Rem 700 in 7-08 that will only shoot Federal fusion ammo in one bullet design accurately, high end ammo Forget it 3-6 in groups, rifle has been worked over by a gunsmith but will only shoot that ammo. Shot a sheep in January at 300+ yds drt with one shot but does not think adequate for elk. I only shoot Barnes TTSXin my Ruger and it works for me. Different ammo maybe different results. A Hornady OAL gauge may be an important tool to use on a new rifle and a micrometer if you use factory ammo to find the right match or use Copper Creeks load packs. Suspect most non reloader shooters never do that kind of ammo matching
 

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A silencer will tame the 308 recoil. Long term that is your best option. Yhm resonator is very light and inexpensive. I've shot it on a 300 Rem Ultramag and it was very pleasant in terms of recoil.
Probably won’t get the tax stamp before Elk season
 

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It's probably good nobody with first-hand experience with the 270 MSR has responded.
I saw this and couldn't help myself . The 270msr is awesome and I'd definitely recommend getting one. I was shooting the cavity back 120mkz this year loaded at 2850 fps and had great results on 2 deer. One was a spike at 450 yards ,that dropped in its tracks. the other was a very large doe at 50 yards that ran about 40 yards with a Massive blood trail and shredded lungs.
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20191116_072504.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #53
When we get this one solved can we all discuss my conundrum? My wife wants a SUV to haul the kids and dogs around. It would have to seat 6 + all their gear for football/band practice, oh and the 2 large dogs that like to go with. The problem we're having is she's not comfortable driving anything larger than the Toyota Camry she has now. She wants to be able to park in the compact spots up front and she drives alot so it would have to get at least 30 mpg.
I'm sorry for that but let's have an honest discussion. We can all shout out our favorite gun but let's break this down.
A bull elk is a big tough animal, a cow not as much. I've lived in Idaho and had friends there that shot those big Idaho bull elk with 257 Roberts, 243 Winchester, and even 22 250. They lived in the mountains and they took elk every year. But they had ample opportunity and they never rushed the shot, they could let one walk away today because they'd have another chance tomorrow. Most of them also only owned that one rifle and used it for everything like marmot, coyote, deer and elk. They could hit a moving marmot or coyote at 500 yards with that gun. They were very confident in where they were going to hit that big animal. And they were all capable of a quick follow up shot on a running animal.(there 2 types of hunters, the shoot once and wait and the shoot until the animal drops type.) More than once I helped pack out an animal for them and it was never too far from the spot they shot it.
I've also known guys that used a 300 win mag or 7mm rem mag because they didn't want to take chances. I've mentioned 300 weatherby is my cartridge of choice.
On the other hand, people shoot elk with a bow so if she's patient and capable and lucky enough to get a 30 yard shot, her current 243 with a 4 moa group will be sufficient.
Now about bullets, you need to penetrate a bit to drop an elk and, generally speaking, higher bc bullets penetrate better than lower bc bullets do. So I'd ask myself what's the heaviest bullet she'd be comfortable pushing to around 2650fps? Then I'd figure out what caliber handles that weight at the top of its range. Then I'd figure out the cartridge that is best suited to that. If she's comfortable with a 140g, it would be a 6.5 creedmore. At my skill level and experience, that's the least powerful round I'd consider shooting at an elk. Very close to the proven 6.5x55 mentioned previously but updated and prolific. And that's only if I'm ok with letting one walk away if everything is not perfect. If she's not confident she could hit a running coyote at 200 yards or can't handle the recoil of a 6.5 c but wants an animal to drop without suffering, maybe elk hunting is not for her.
This really helped. Thanks for staying on topic!
 

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Hey Guts!

I DO have a 270MSR.....but you said no wildcats.
That being said, I have used it on hogs and a few Coyotes. The results are more than impressive!!
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Hey Guts!

I DO have a 270MSR.....but you said no wildcats.
That being said, I have used it on hogs and a few Coyotes. The results are more than impressive!!
I did say no wildcat, thank you for not pushing my addiction. However... I did also say, the cartridge needed to meet "most" of my parameters lol
I saw this and couldn't help myself . The 270msr is awesome and I'd definitely recommend getting one. I was shooting the cavity back 120mkz this year loaded at 2850 fps and had great results on 2 deer. One was a spike at 450 yards ,that dropped in its tracks. the other was a very large doe at 50 yards that ran about 40 yards with a Massive blood trail and shredded lungs. View attachment 61507 View attachment 61508 View attachment 61507
I can probably get a general idea on the performance of the 270 MSR on game because it is in between the 6.8 SPC and the 270 win. What I would really like to know about the 270 msr is the results of the specific loads (bullets) at various ranges on tuff game like hogs, elk or caribou. Good picture of the scrambled lungs, Dfluery, Congrats!

I would like performance numbers from honest load data. What I mean by "honest" is, safe, no pressure signs whatsoever. What is the feet per second with what weight and type bullet, in what length barrel? What is your twist rate? What kind of groups are you getting? What magazines and BCG are you using? Have you had any issues with magazines or function of the rifle in any way with the round? Do you think this cartridge would be worth building a bolt action rifle around.

If I do take on this cartridge, I want to go into it with my eyes open. As Madolive3 said, hit it with a (relatively) soft Landing.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I dont reload so I am at the mercy of the ammo companies and their decisions about factory ammo. I was looking for a 280 and found a lightly used Montana Rifle Co left hand that came with Copper Creek Cartridge Co ammo designed for the rifle. Had never heard of this company and started to read about their process and had an oh s—t moment. Had never considered the variability in oal in factory ammo as a principal cause of accuracy issues in quality rifles. Son has a Rem 700 in 7-08 that will only shoot Federal fusion ammo in one bullet design accurately, high end ammo Forget it 3-6 in groups, rifle has been worked over by a gunsmith but will only shoot that ammo. Shot a sheep in January at 300+ yds drt with one shot but does not think adequate for elk. I only shoot Barnes TTSXin my Ruger and it works for me. Different ammo maybe different results. A Hornady OAL gauge may be an important tool to use on a new rifle and a micrometer if you use factory ammo to find the right match or use Copper Creeks load packs. Suspect most non reloader shooters never do that kind of ammo matching
Good point. My Winchester model 88 likes PPU soft point ammo. Shoots it sub MOA even though it's not supposed to (and doesn't) with any ammo other ammo. Fine by me. It's cheap and shoots great.

Why does your son not think a 7-08 is adequate for elk after taking a sheep? Sheep can be big but not as big as elk. Was it poor bullet performance at that range? Range to far in general, bullet drop?

Those Montana Rifles are nice. Being left-hand it can be a little tough finding a rifle and a cartridge combination I want. Twice I've gone to order a rifle from them for a specific hunt and the wait times have been too long. I am thankful that they are honest about the delivery dates.
 

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Sounds like you need a Tikka in 7-08. Mate has one and I have a Ruger M77 in the same calibre.
No problem with our Bull Tahr and Red stag out to 450-500mm. They arent too much smaller than elk. I'll see if I can find some recent photos.

Tikkas shoot well out of the box. We shoots 162 ELD-X's, seem to do the business, admittedly hand loaded though. Not sure what the heaviest factory loads are out there.
 

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Good point. My Winchester model 88 likes PPU soft point ammo. Shoots it sub MOA even though it's not supposed to (and doesn't) with any ammo other ammo. Fine by me. It's cheap and shoots great.

Why does your son not think a 7-08 is adequate for elk after taking a sheep? Sheep can be big but not as big as elk. Was it poor bullet performance at that range? Range to far in general, bullet drop?

Those Montana Rifles are nice. Being left-hand it can be a little tough finding a rifle and a cartridge combination I want. Twice I've gone to order a rifle from them for a specific hunt and the wait times have been too long. I am thankful that they are honest about the delivery dates.
He is concerned that the one bullet the rifle likes is inadequate as a long range elk round
 

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250 yards isn't long range.

It's not how much the bullet weights out of the barrel that determines penetration. It is how much the bullet weights after expansion which defines how much kinetic energy remains in the terminal phase. That is one advantage of the copper/monolithic bullets, even if the initial weight is less.
 

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Well, since dlfleury showed some lung pictures, here are the terminal result of an 105 MKZ on an elk shot from a 6.8mm 18" at 200 yards. You can see the tri-star wound cavity the stretches out from the 3 pedals when the bullet exited the lungs. This type of wound cavity produces massive hemorrhaging.

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