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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
Seeing the pattern here?

120gr MKZ = not good as a general purpose tactical load
120gr MKZ = good deep penetration hunting load (but not well suited to small game due to the neck length)
120gr MKZ = possibly good for tactical long range use due to low opening velocity, but that lower than affected muzzle velocity adds to drop and drift making it hard to use...why so low?

110gr OTM = ideal tactical load (not in production any longer, so somewhat moot unless you have a bunch left)
110gr VMax = even more ideal tactical load

That's my story based on my results and I'm sticking to it. I've been consistent post after post on this. I see nothing here that actually contradicts the "5 years of use as a hunting bullet" that would indicate I've suggested otherwise based on the gel results.

It just is not well suited for tactical use except possibly for a very specific application and tactical performance IS my primary application. I never figured it would be ideal for general tactical applications EXCEPT for longer ranges where just getting a hit and expansion is difficult in which case MKZ might be well suited due to it's very low opening velocity.

Then we circle back around to "why is my velocity so low" compared to what I expected for a +P load...which affects drop and drift. I doubt 100 FPS would make a noticeable difference in terminal performance at usable ranges as bullet design plays a far bigger role, but it does have some accumulative effect on drop and drift without re-zeroing specifically for that load, hence the nature of this thread.

But I digress...I won't know for sure until I get a chance to run a full 7 shot string on the same chrono to verify. And no, I do not believe there's an issue with my chrono, the velocities I get from other factory loads are right about what I expect.

And here's another quote from myself on a post up above right before all of the personal attacks against me started with all of these ridiculous claims:

Regarding tactical applications, the US Military seems to think that the OTM loads tested (115gr and 110gr, both Hornady) were quite ideal for "non-naked" bad guys. See attached. They also state that a neck length of 2" or LESS is ideal but up to 3" is permissible, which in my testing MKZ produced a 3.5" neck length from my rifle and 3" from my dad's before opening up, making it not well suited for the application.

Just because I'm suggesting it's not well suited for one application doesn't mean I'm inferring it's a bad projectile design or ineffective or even non-lethal. But the best results are from the best tool for the job. MKZ absolutely has applications it's stellar in, just not tactical applications based on the gel tests and highly reputable testing that I've gathered over the years which have determined ideal terminal performance on human enemy combatants.
 

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"Neck length at these velocities (about 2350 FPS average assuming it doesn't get better with more shots in a string) was about 3.5 inches, so this load would be good for large bodied game, but not ideal for tactical applications or deer unless maybe quartering away."

This is in post 22 and 3rd paragraph I believe. This is where you derailed your own thread. You asked about fps and turned to gel testing.

Maybe it's possible you got a bad batch of ammo or maybe the chrono messed up for a bit. Things happen.

I think we can all agree that at this moment those rounds don't fit your qualifications. That's cool. Doesn't bother me one bit. Maybe after you get some time to retest and shoot you will get those answers your looking for.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
That's what I intend. I just added the information because I had it and never thought once it would cause such a stir. As mentioned, the whole thread was originally about trying to see if my MV results were way off base. I will report back once I have some more data on this particular load.

I may re-test the MKZ in another block of gel (3rd) time just for kicks and giggles once average velocity is verified correct, but ultimately I don't expect the results are going to change much.

I think it's one of the best medium game hunting loads out there for this caliber (aka a deep penetration load), but not well suited for tactical use except at the extremes of range (similar to how 77gr OTM aka MK262 is used in 5.56 applications) due to the low opening velocity.

The right tool for the job always has the best results even if you can get by with something else. You use what you have on hand, not what you wish you had on had.
 

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Unfortunately, your propensity for volume has led you into a discussion based upon very little actual knowledge and was based upon very little actual experience with the round on the targets which it was designed for unlike the many detailed reports by actual users in this forum.
 

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Lol. It would be nice if the op would go back and read the original post . Hunting was mentioned before tactical and tactical is not the same as self defense or home protection. Had he started by saying he was looking for the best home defense load things might have gone smother.

Sent from my LM-K920 using Tapatalk
 

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120gr MKZ = not good as a general purpose tactical load
120gr MKZ = good deep penetration hunting load (but not well suited to small game due to the neck length)
120gr MKZ = possibly good for tactical long range use due to low opening velocity, but that lower than affected muzzle velocity adds to drop and drift making it hard to use...why so low?

Still conjecture and ignoring real world results.
"Not suited to small game" totally ignoring 5 years of perfect performance on all sizes of game. Yotes included, I think they qualify as small game. Hundreds of deer including small whitetail. Which I have personally used them on numerous times.
"Making it hard to use" are you serious here? They've been shot to 600 yards in competition and made the podium. I can bang the gong 25 out of 25 times at 420 meters with them
"Not good as a general tactical load" Again unfounded conjecture. Barrier blind, hard hitting, high expansion exactly what is wanted in a tactical round. Do you realize SF uses high expansion monolithic bullets in tactical situations? Apparently not. You state the Vmax is an ideal tactical load when its not barrier blind at all. There are times when you want to shoot through a wall. Rather than expose yourself to counter fire. Ive shot both Vmax and SST through walls, car doors, glass and garage doors and they disintegrate. I would never use either as a tactical round.

Buddy your way off base with your baseless assumptions of performance that has been proven for over 5 years.
I do not know what your goal is here but you are not making yourself look as knowledgeable as your trying to.
In fact quite the opposite.
You are stating our product does not do what its been proven it to do. Even in full auto fire testing.
You state you stand by your opinion with no real world test results. Which we have done.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 · (Edited)
What you don't like is the fact that ballistic gel tests from two completely different barrels with different chambers, rifling etc. showed a characteristic that contradicts your anecdotal proofs you claim are incontrovertible evidence that the MKZ projectile is well suited to every possible use.

1. Lethality has little to do with immediacy of effect. Cancer, car accidents, gun shots, beatings, stabbings are all LETHAL events, but many times not immediate. So let's get this straight, effectiveness factors in both lethality, how quickly that outcome takes place and any side effects (collateral damage etc.). Not suitable does not necessarily mean not lethal. So take it how you will, but that's what I mean when I say "not well suited" or "unsuitable".

2. "not suitable for small game" - 1. MKZ is expensive, I paid over $42 for one box of 20, waste of money to use on nuisance critters but have at it, there are cheaper effective options for that 2. Not particularly hard to kill small game, any load in 6.8 SPC, 5.56 or even .17 HMR and many other calibers will do the job, this doesn't show case the performance of MKZ or prove it's effectiveness relative to other loads even as a hunting load. I really don't think even the hunters on this forum go out and say "hey, let's blow $2 a round on a coyote I can easily kill with a .223". Hence "not suitable for small game".

3. "Still conjecture and ignoring real world results." There's absolutely no conjecture about the established optimal neck length for loads suitable to combat applications which are consequently...wait for it....based on real world results. The US Military (various branches) and FBI have literally been studying this topic for over 4 decades...from the failures of handgun ammunition to the common M855 (Green Tip) general purpose 5.56 load, they have unequivocally established an optimal neck length of 1-2" with 3" being the maximum permissible for these types of applications. Good grief.

4. "Making it hard to use" - in my rifle, the lower muzzle velocity adds significantly to drop and drift over other loads including SAAMI spec factory loads. I have yet to test accuracy, but higher drop and drift makes it harder to use when your not sitting on a bench with a high powered scope with a 20" barreled rifle dialed in just for that load. And when it fails to open up as quickly as you assume at CQB distance it will (despite repeated proof it won't) your going to get ice picking which is the same problem M855 has and why it's no longer in service. Real world problems, real world consequences. Be my guest.

120gr MKZ is not well suited to some of mine and many other AR-15 owners primary applications, the results are what they are. Clearly it works well in typical NA hunting uses and to my understanding that is it's primary purpose to exist. I have not suggested even once it is not an excellent deep penetrating load. That doesn't make it suited for everything under the sun nor well suited to all types of game, especially given the cost.
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 · (Edited)
Lol. It would be nice if the op would go back and read the original post . Hunting was mentioned before tactical and tactical is not the same as self defense or home protection. Had he started by saying he was looking for the best home defense load things might have gone smother.

Sent from my LM-K920 using Tapatalk
Post #22 is my first mention to the suitability of either (hunting and tactical applications), literally a paragraph apart. So what does the order matter? The way your stating it seems to try to indicate I made no reference to self defense / tactical applications and then suddenly changed my references...try reading #22 from start to finish. I think it's pretty clear when we read it slow enough to comprehend the material instead of using a faulty recollection.

Immediately after post #22 you posted about my comment on deer, which again, if you read on in later posts, my comment was in reference to what's in my area. 75lb to 125lb deer are not that big. White tail can clock in over 200lbs for some trophy bucks, but that's far from what's around here. And then you cited coyote kills with MKZ as well...gee lots of people have killed them with VMax or any other early frag bullet including smaller less effective calibers like .223 which is far more popular than 6.8 SPC...in fact it's a darling load for yotes, ground hogs and many other 20lb to 40lb critters.

I never once said it won't kill them, but it's a waste of money and it's just over penetrating their hides needlessly, wasting energy (hence less and ideal). Lethal...but not ideal. In fact, I don't know anyone that uses 120gr 6.8 SPC loads of any type for critters except the few people who've suddenly become highly offended by just a single reference to the non-ideal neck length in ballistc gel for 120gr MKZ...........................................................................................really?

Every person is free to use what ever they like. You can use MKZ plated in gold for all I care. I am just sharing my results and my interpretation of those results. I rely heavily on extensive data gathered by Military and LE sources and try to verify with testing when possible, including some of the sources that literally dreamed up this very cartridge. There is a lot of here say, including arguments used to show "why this bullet is the best" and anecdotal reports of "it's killed hundreds of bla bla bla"...Your right, ballistic gel isn't a real animal (never said it was), but an animal isn't a human either and humans that kill humans for a living, including every major ammunition supplier, have determined that to be a very good proxy.

Deficiencies that show up in gel tend to have a bad habit of showing up in the real world too. Just look at M855's performance. Some times it fragmented early and was highly effective, other times it would ice pick. Seemingly inexplicable until the reasons why were discovered, with some arguments going to so far as to literally blame combat fatigue and false recollections. Once the issues were verified, a new load was designed to address those deficiencies and viola, we have M855A1. Guess what, they reproduced those issues in ballistic gel........while not absolute, neither is an account of a single success story or even a hundred of them. Fire enough shots and ideal results will happen by chance eventually.

So, with all that said, it is what it is. This load (120gr MKZ) fails to meet certain critical criteria that make it well suited to applications outside of hunting game, particularly game that require deeper penetration to take down quickly. Otherwise, there are better options. And the lower muzzle velocity of these custom +P loads in my 16" barreled upper make it more difficult to shoot at range as well due to drop and drift than I had anticipated, but still plenty usable if it ends up accurate, hence why the following:

I never bought the MKZ for tactical applications, I got them for difficult to kill medium to medium-large game as a deep penetrating load for use at longer distances and I think it will still work very well for that based on the gel results even at around 2350~2400 FPS average muzzle velocity.
 

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Anyone else tested the CBB120 MKZ loaded ammo from a 16" ARP barrel, velocity?
 

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I have done a ton of gel testing and shot 7 deer with the 120mkz. I got pretty much instant expansion in every single single gel test from 30 yards to 300 yards. I've shot deer from 75 pounds to 200 pounds, from 30 yards to 250 yards and every time the bullet bullet was fully expanded by the time it hit the ribs on the entry side. I shot a 75 pound doe and the entry side ribs had a fist size hole so the bullet opened very quick. I've posted picture of the results of almost all my tests and kills. I've have a video on YouTube, that's also on CBB's website that shows exactly how effective they are. Im curious why your gel test was giving you such a long neck, when mine never did. 2 differences are i use homemade gel , that I calibrate with a BB gun to ensure proper density. And I use handloads @ 2550 fps from my 16 inch YHM barrel. My friend just put together a rifle with a 18 arp barrel and bought some loaded 120mkz's so I can run some velocity tests. I also have 12.5 and 20 inch arp barrels that I can run them through. I do have some blocks of clear gel also so I can take some shots into them. Here's a picture of my 200 yard gel test, you can see there virtually no neck. And these 2 pics are of the 75 pound doe I shot at 90 yards. You can see how much hemorrhaging is on the entry side, which shows how quickly the bullet was dumping energy. And the other pic is the entry side ribs on the doe.
 

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ARP, nope. My Bison was about 2450 ish, but I didn't try and load them hot. Just worked up to book max with AA220, verified it didn't go boom. My 105's however are at 2770
I'm talking about CBBs factory loaded ammo, everyone will get a different speed with different handloads.
 

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What you don't like is the fact that ballistic gel tests from two completely different barrels with different chambers, rifling etc. showed a characteristic that contradicts your anecdotal proofs you claim are incontrovertible evidence that the MKZ projectile is well suited to every possible use.

1. Lethality has little to do with immediacy of effect. Cancer, car accidents, gun shots, beatings, stabbings are all LETHAL events, but many times not immediate. So let's get this straight, effectiveness factors in both lethality, how quickly that outcome takes place and any side effects (collateral damage etc.). Not suitable does not necessarily mean not lethal. So take it how you will, but that's what I mean when I say "not well suited" or "unsuitable".

2. "not suitable for small game" - 1. MKZ is expensive, I paid over $42 for one box of 20, waste of money to use on nuisance critters but have at it, there are cheaper effective options for that 2. Not particularly hard to kill small game, any load in 6.8 SPC, 5.56 or even .17 HMR and many other calibers will do the job, this doesn't show case the performance of MKZ or prove it's effectiveness relative to other loads even as a hunting load. I really don't think even the hunters on this forum go out and say "hey, let's blow $2 a round on a coyote I can easily kill with a .223". Hence "not suitable for small game".

3. "Still conjecture and ignoring real world results." There's absolutely no conjecture about the established optimal neck length for loads suitable to combat applications which are consequently...wait for it....based on real world results. The US Military (various branches) and FBI have literally been studying this topic for over 4 decades...from the failures of handgun ammunition to the common M855 (Green Tip) general purpose 5.56 load, they have unequivocally established an optimal neck length of 1-2" with 3" being the maximum permissible for these types of applications. Good grief.

4. "Making it hard to use" - in my rifle, the lower muzzle velocity adds significantly to drop and drift over other loads including SAAMI spec factory loads. I have yet to test accuracy, but higher drop and drift makes it harder to use when your not sitting on a bench with a high powered scope with a 20" barreled rifle dialed in just for that load. And when it fails to open up as quickly as you assume at CQB distance it will (despite repeated proof it won't) your going to get ice picking which is the same problem M855 has and why it's no longer in service. Real world problems, real world consequences. Be my guest.

120gr MKZ is not well suited to some of mine and many other AR-15 owners primary applications, the results are what they are. Clearly it works well in typical NA hunting uses and to my understanding that is it's primary purpose to exist. I have not suggested even once it is not an excellent deep penetrating load. That doesn't make it suited for everything under the sun nor well suited to all types of game, especially given the cost.
All your opinions.
They underlying constant is you dont like the price.
Your understanding of their purpose to exist is maligned.
Much like all your responses.
You demand we listen to your opinions yet you don't hunt.
Your taking a bunch of stuff you have read and are trying to apply it here. With no proof of anything.
Ignoring our results and everyone that has used our bullets for 5 years results.
Have never shot an animal with our bullets yet tell us how they must perform, when real results show the opposite of your claims.
We have 5 years of real animal kills, gel tests, customer testimonies, all proving what we say is true.
Ill do you a favor. Ill refund your money as well as let you know how much back chatter I'm getting about how weird you are.
You think your making yourself look good apparently. Its quite the opposite actually.

Oh and as to Xman testing our bullets, your a bit late, he is our lead tester. He is highly unbiased and concise. Which is why we went to him. The real expert on 6.8 projectile performance.
 

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And, with that said, I think this thread has run its course. Thank you Robert, for bringing this product to market on our behalf, and for doing what others have not been willing to accomplish. For that, the membership (as a whole) would extend appreciation for your work.
 
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