Bullet bounced off a backbone.

I guess it’s my bad. I forgot self-defense rounds are designed for the old bellyflop scenario. All splash in a kiddie pool. Actual bone breaking penetration would be evil.

Quite seriously, if a bullet can’t penetrate 2 1/2” of tenderloin and break a back bone, how is it going to break a sternum and puncture a lung? I expect self-defense ammo to have stopping power, that includes breaking bones.

I think Hollywood and gun writers have convinced too many people that a pistol is somehow grossly over powerful. Pistol bullets will penetrate multiple walls and kill our neighbors sleeping baby 300 yards away. I’d be surprised if this anemic round could penetrate more than a T-shirt at 300 yards.

How, many times has a TV hero emptied a rifle, with sparks flying. Then pull his pistol and drop every bad guy, even through walls. We actually believe that nonsense and ammo manufacturers are happy to add less powder but still charge a premium.

There’s a lot of propaganda on the box but I didn’t read, “This ammo will only penetrate the bad guy. Do not use for any other purpose”.

My line of thinking is if I'm using lighter weight pills, more speed (shock), if I'm shooting something with less speed, I need mass to penetrate. Also, bone varies. A rib bone is designed to move a little, but not much, and it's thinner. A leg bone is going to be more robust. A neck bone is designed for ease of movement. So a bullet which shatters rib bone, may only crack a leg bone, and the elasticity of an entire neck may contribute to the result you experienced. Also, a vertebrae offers a little more structural support on the posterior side, less on the anterior side. Vertebrae at the base of the neck are dealing with more leverage than those located at the base of the skull, so, more robust at the base of the neck. I'd be willing to bet that the same shot to C1 would've given you the desire you were seeking.

Guts said:

Seriously, so how do I shoot around ribs, sternum, zippers on leather jackets or a pocket full of anything?

Click to expand...

Those are a little different than the spine of a mule deer. One is hard bone that by design has to be tough and the other is cartilage designed to bend and is fairly soft in comparison. That said a human upper torso typically doesnt have 3in of meat before a fairly heavy bone that is needing to be broken. Its more like 1-2.5" if someone is ripped and you hit the pectoral muscle and then it needs to penetrate soft cartilage to go to work. If you are not confident in the round I would switch to something that would penetrate more.

Expanding bullets by design limit penetration. When you combine a lightweight bullet that expands a lot I wouldn't expect much penetration in anything other than gel. Also a wide surface area round hitting something hard spreads out the force instead of concentrating it on one spot. Thus also not the ideal situation for breaking bone. Think a 20oz tennis racket (wide side) hitting you vs a 20 oz hammer.

Similarly, I shot a cablelock with a 45acp 3.5in barrel and 230gr hst once and it stopped the bullet without breaking the lock. The bullet was imbedded in the side of the lock, it didnt even break the bullet apart. The hit was solid, but that made me get rid of that short barrel 1911.


BTW I used to run that exact taurus round years ago.

@Guts - I agree with you in that the round should have (or I would have thought a good round should have) fractured the vertebrate. However, I also know (from many videos and personal experience later on that) that handguns with short barrels require "delicate" selection of ammunition.

Personal experience: I had to put a 60'ish pound, healthy pet (dog) down for several reasons that aren't relevant. After a really good day I sent him to "the farm" using a Gi 1911 clone and Federal 185 JHPs. Back of the head so it would be quick and humane (as it could be). The bullet didn't exit that I could tell (I was ready to get messy, but all I had with me). Nothing.

So, much like Xman, while I wouldn't have predicted it and would have preferred it work like I hoped, I'm not overly surprised.

These and many other reasons are why I usually run a 10mm while in the woods (occasionally a 357 Sig) with alternating JHPs and FMJs. POI is close enough at the ranges I intend to need.

Thanks for the report. Much like @Xman's after action report on "Constant Bearing - Decreasing Range" great info and much appreciated!!

ETA: Also wanted to thank others for their useful and informative input/comments. This is by FAR one of the best forums out there.

The deer was small, less than 120 lbs. I originally intended for a shot at the base of the skull. The animal was pretty agitated from already being wounded and with me and the wifey so close, a miss or more wounding was very likely.

A dispatch shot to the base of the neck with nearly any handgun, especially with a 45 at 10’, is not normally an unrealistic option. I’m a little stunned that so many think this is normal performance. I had to shoot a very large pitbull with a compact 380 using a 90 grain self-defense bullet at 10 feet. It instantly dropped it. I would’ve expected the 45 to perform similarly.

Usually when in the woods I carry a 6” 357 magnum. Encountering bears, lions and wolves are real possibilities where I hunt. The 6” barrel is good for a hunting but not so good for quick draw. I have the opportunity to pick up a 4” Dan Wesson 357 at a good price. I’m now a little hesitant.

.45 ACP HoneyBadger™ | Black Hills Ammunition (black-hills.com)

Underwood Xtreme Defender Ammo 45 ACP +P 135 Grain Lehigh Xtreme (midwayusa.com)

They don't do more damage than a good HP (don't believe Underwood's marketing) but are much more consistent in terminal performance than HP's, monolithic or otherwise, especially against hard barriers like glass. I'd imagine that would enhance their performance when striking bone as well over a typical hollow point. I attached the Viper Systems test reports done for the DoD on these Leigh XD bullets.

While I didn't see evidence of significantly larger wound channels than a properly expanding HP, what they did do was provide high consistency. They are the only enhanced bullet to have never failed to perform even after the most difficult barriers. I still need to test them in my Sig's, but pending they feed and function correctly, will become my carry ammo of choice, with HST's being my second pick.

That's one of the things I had really liked about the 110gr OTM load in 6.8 (aka Hornady BTHP), it performed very well against glass barriers and other hard barriers, something VMax does not do well against. I've yet to see someone say it does not do well against hogs either, but I think a few have had mixed results with deer and BTHP (some performed very well, others penciled through which is an issue all OTM's can have).

I just think the large frontal area, rapid expanding, lite for caliber bullet traveling fairly slowly, is just a recipe for very little penetration. Looking at Ballistics By The Inch and extrapolating some data, the 185gr hst is 1002 fps from 5" but 946 fopr 4" and 867 for 3". Depending on your Subcompact barrel length and most reports saying this Taurus round was 950fps from 5", it could be around 815fps from a 3". I dont have great expectations when you look at those numbers. The bullet could be great handloaded up to a 45acp+p loading but this sounds like a fairly weak loaded round.

Here is an excerpt from M4guy attachment stating none of the expanding copper bullets met minimum penetration standard in any caliber. That said the non expanding solid copper (fluted) bullets were excellent and performed flawlessly.