[crenca]

Anyone have any recomendations on a good book on carbine tactics/training?

Everything I have looked at so far is far more equipment focused.

Thanks!

 

[marinesg1012]

I art of the tactical carbine from Magpul gets good reviews...

it is a dvd which I would think is better then a book

http://www.magpul.com/catalog/index.php ... cts_id=298

I have it and looking over the back it seems like a god basic DVD, I didnt watch it like I said, I just didnt have the time.

 

[Zippy]

Ii won that set of DVD's at the class. It's actually 3 DVD's. I've watched about half the first and so far it's been pretty reasonable.

 

[crenca]

pretty reasonable

Zippy,

Are you a glass half full, or a glass half empty sort of guy?

I ask because "pretty reasonable" from some folks is a ringing endorsement, others its a criticism... :wink:

 

[Zippy]

I am somewhat ambivalent on it only because of their approach to teaching. So far, the information appears to be covered in reasonable detail, clearly presented and the instructor's appear to be knowledgeable. I wasn't really all that thrilled by their run and gun intro and that same sort of approach carried over into their instruction. I'll guarantee that some high school students somewhere were creaming their jeans over all the bullets they were firing but it looked like a silly waste of ammo from my viewpoint. Sure they fired off almost four hundred rounds of ammo in a couple minutes but how often if that a valuable approach to the average person taking their class. I start running around my neighborhood emptying magazines right and left and I'm not going to be considered a hero.

One example would be one of the instructor's spending time talking about how he had 90 rounds available instantly, the mag in his gun, his ready mag and another in a belt holder, then slower magazines in his vest. That's a pretty valuable insight if you're driving through Baghdad or I suppose if you're playing gun games but for the average civilian not so much. There's another part where one of the instructors is telling a student he's pretty sure that the student rode the short bus. The guy was doing silly things with his mag but there are more polished ways of presenting that information to the student.

I found the class with John/Ross was better because I felt they did a better job of explaining the theory or ideas behind what we were going to do than having us accomplish it. The Magpul video seems to be closer to the Gabe Suarez school of thought which tends to annoy me somewhat. I think that the class being captured and the instruction would probably rate as an above average class but the points above bothered me. Second, jumping up and down about how great the DVD's were might fool you into thinking that it was as good as attending a class. It isn't. No chance to ask questions or get feedback on what YOU are doing wrong. It is a whole lot cheaper to buy though and a lot easier to review afterwards.

Bottom Line - It's not perfect but it is a very good value. So far it seems to be doing a good job of communicating the basic information you need to know. It's much better for basic rifle skills than any book I've read.

 

[marinesg1012]

I agree that magpul should of stayed with what they knew... IE making stocks and other parts but they hired on a former SF cat/TC dude and he convinced them to spin up a training dept...

 

[crenca]

Thanks for the detail Zippy. Like I said, I am just looking for something until I can get to a class....

 

[Zippy]

I was thinking about it and really the fairest comparison is against other videos. To me it DOES stand head and shoulders above any of the others I have seen. My collection is small only about ten of them but I doubt you'll find a better resource.

 

[rob_s]

I agree that magpul should of stayed with what they knew... IE making stocks and other parts but they hired on a former SF cat/TC dude and he convinced them to spin up a training dept...

Depending on your definition of "spin up", that's not exactly what happened, but ok.

I have trained with Travis and Chris from Magpul, when Travis was still on his own as "Simply Dynamic, Inc." Like virtually every training class I've taken, there were some things that I learned and took away from the class,and some things that I didn't like. I do think that the attraction to their classes for most that take them is a kind of "Outward Bound with guns" kind of thing where people enjoy the running and gunning. Some may consider this "overtaining" or training "outside your lane", there's another way to look at it.

No, I'm not likely to find myself engaging multiple hostile targets from behind my vehicle with a teammate. However, if I can successfully navigate that scenario, and have up-trained for that scenario, then dealing with lone armed burglar coming up my stairs at 0300 becomes a much easier task.

I have the videos, but haven't had a chance to watch them yet, but having seen enough shorts posted on the 'web and having trained with them I have a fair idea of what's on them.

Since the OP asked for books and not videos, my suggestion is for Kyle Lamb's book Green Eyes, Black Rifles. There are some things in the book that don't work for me personally, and it's A WAY not THE WAY, but since most people don't even have "a way", this is a good jumping off point. Lamb covers gear, guns, marksmanship, firing positions, weapon manipulations, etc.

 

[marinesg1012]

Rob I meant no offense... i dont know the trainers directly, I know them through fellows guys I have worked with, and another guy I work with worked with magpul for a while

 

[rob_s]

No, I didn't think you did, I just wanted to give Chris his due. He was head of "Magpul training division" for a few years before Travis came on board. When I met him at the SDI class I thought he looked familiar, and when I got home I looked through my business cards and found one from SHOT 2007 with his name and "Magpul Training Division" on it.

it's just since Travis coming on that they've made the big push into internet celebrity status, and the video has increased their visibility 10x above that.

I like Travis and Chris, as well as the "new guy" Patrick, from the limited time I've spent with them, and I think they all have something to offer the training community. I don't think I'd take a Magpul class as my first one, even their intro class, but I think just about anyone can get something from their way of doing things. You just have to process it through your personal filters to figure out what's applicable and how it applies.

 

[marinesg1012]

I would like to take a class from them, I think travis is the dude who killed a lot of dudes on that roof in najaf and for that alone I wouldnt mind hearing what he has to say 8)

 

[rob_s]

I would like to take a class from them, I think travis is the dude who killed a lot of dudes on that roof in najaf and for that alone I wouldnt mind hearing what he has to say 8)

Yes he is, and the "viral" status of that video has certainly helped their marketing, even if it hasn't been used directly by Magpul.

 

[marinesg1012]

Well to be honest almost everything is about marketing..... and I am not just talking about magpul.

Edit: sorry for the thread drift.

 

[leto]

I would like to take a class from them, I think travis is the dude who killed a lot of dudes on that roof in najaf and for that alone I wouldnt mind hearing what he has to say 8)

Yes he is, and the "viral" status of that video has certainly helped their marketing, even if it hasn't been used directly by Magpul.

not being used "directly" by the company is kin to a politician using soft money. that video has certainly become a legend in its own right for sure. it seems (with NO disrespect) that he(travis) found himself in a glory whole, and had a lot of opportunity presenting itself. More of a right time right place (if you want to call it that) than anything else. A great moment in marketing, especialy for a guy who started out a completely independant training company shortly after the video started circeling.

Again I am not knocking his skills, he certainly has them. I am more of 'giving props` to the marketing

and to the OP; the video is quality, overly action packed for an educational but good stuff. borrow it if you can

 

[Zippy]

I've made it through the first DVD. My opinion of the class and content has shot up considerably. It's hard to say for sure since they aren't capturing the full interactions of students and teachers but it certainly appear from the vignettes of teacher student interaction that the instructors have settled in and proven themselves to be very good teachers and very good at their interactions with the students.

There was one student who really muffed a drill, you could tell he was having a hard time getting the steps down mentally and then he just dissolved under the pressure of making mistakes in front of the observer. The instructor calmly let him walk through it himself while tossing in a few hints and then complemented him with "Great way to think your way through it." Having been in that student's shoes and knowing how it feels I could really appreciate the gentleness on that one. The interactions between one of the instructors and one of the students when she was trying to clear a weapon were priceless. He was trying to crank up the pressure (and managing it) with a drill instructor approach of yelling in her ear but he was having a hard time not busting out laughing over the sheer over the topness of what he was doing.

The clarity of the instruction has been excellent. They clearly and concisely outline what to do and why before each of the drills. The drills have been very good also. They're making the students do fairly simple mental tasks like addition to figure out which targets to shoot which is great mental training. They're also covering topics that would be critical for anyone who is living with an AR-15 strapped on like LEO/Military but are pretty valuable for a civilian also.

So far, I would love to take their class.

 

[Test_User]

What books were good to learn from:


GREEN EYES AND BLACK RIFLES -Warriors Guide to the Combat Carbine by Kyle E. Lamb

 

[Bubba FAL]

A little off topic, but if you're looking for basic marksmanship/rifle training and can't afford to shell out big $$$ for a class, why not look up a local Highpower match? It may not have the cachet of a tactical training class, but you will learn a lot and gain confidence in your rifle/carbine for very little cash. Basically, all you need to get started is the rifle, ammo, some sort of mat/pad, at least two mags and an open mind. Generally, there are people who are more than happy to coach a newbie - we were all newbies at one time or another.

Things you'll learn:

Basic positions - standing, sitting (or kneeling), prone.
Proper use of a sling (it really is possible to shoot accurately from prone without a bipod)
Natural point of aim
breathing control
trigger control
how to dope wind
how to use iron sights (yes, it really is possible to score hits @ 600yds or more without optics!)
malfunction drills - haven't met anyone yet that hasn't had a malf in the middle of a string at one time or another
rapid reloads - all stages are timed, can you acquire a position, load and fire 10 aimed rounds in 60 seconds (with 1 reload)?
how to rapidly acquire a stable firing position
how firing position affects POA/POI
rifle ergonomics - does that cool new tactical stock/forearm really fit you? or does that oversize charging handle whack you in the nose when firing prone?
reliability of your equipment - if it can't hold up to an 80rd. match, it ain't ready for tactical use, some of those tactical doo-dads hanging off of people's rifles tend to loosen up/fall off at the wrong time, better to find out during a match than in a life or death situation.

Sure, it's "just punching paper at known distances", but where else can you gain all of the above for a nominal entry fee?

 

[paulosantos]

A little off topic, but if you're looking for basic marksmanship/rifle training and can't afford to shell out big $$$ for a class, why not look up a local Highpower match? It may not have the cachet of a tactical training class, but you will learn a lot and gain confidence in your rifle/carbine for very little cash. Basically, all you need to get started is the rifle, ammo, some sort of mat/pad, at least two mags and an open mind. Generally, there are people who are more than happy to coach a newbie - we were all newbies at one time or another.

Things you'll learn:

Basic positions - standing, sitting (or kneeling), prone.
Proper use of a sling (it really is possible to shoot accurately from prone without a bipod)
Natural point of aim
breathing control
trigger control
how to dope wind
how to use iron sights (yes, it really is possible to score hits @ 600yds or more without optics!)
malfunction drills - haven't met anyone yet that hasn't had a malf in the middle of a string at one time or another
rapid reloads - all stages are timed, can you acquire a position, load and fire 10 aimed rounds in 60 seconds (with 1 reload)?
how to rapidly acquire a stable firing position
how firing position affects POA/POI
rifle ergonomics - does that cool new tactical stock/forearm really fit you? or does that oversize charging handle whack you in the nose when firing prone?
reliability of your equipment - if it can't hold up to an 80rd. match, it ain't ready for tactical use, some of those tactical doo-dads hanging off of people's rifles tend to loosen up/fall off at the wrong time, better to find out during a match than in a life or death situation.

Sure, it's "just punching paper at known distances", but where else can you gain all of the above for a nominal entry fee?

That's pretty much what we learned at the class.

 

[texaspartsman]

I think the MagPul Video is a good place to start. If a picture is worth a thousand words then the video is worth a lot more than any book. I liked the video.
I was in the army back in the 80's before their lot of M-16's was upgraded. I earned my Infantry cord and was a grunt. I didn't hate my M-16 but I didn't really like it either.
After I got out I bought a Colt SP-1. A lot has changed with AR's since then
-Flat top uppers and getting rid of the aweful carry handle sights and allows for good optics.
-Better twist rate that stabilizes a wider range bullets.
-CNC machining, now even the worst AR-s are pretty dang good.
-match quality triggers
I just finished building a Larue stealth and converting an Armalite upper to 6.8
Since I am in my 40's I decided to buy the "Art of the Tactical Carbine" to see if I could learn some new skills.
A lot of the 2cnd DVD was lost on me, if you aren't tactical shooting with a buddy there isn't a lot info you need. The part about moving with your safety on is good.....
I liked the first DVD. It focuses on training you to do away with useless movements that will cost you time and maybe your life during an actual fight. Gives a new shooter that has never been in the military or taken a carbine course a lot of info to make them affective shooters.
You will have to practice the moves . If you want to do a 3 gun shoot it will help with the run and gun parts and make you and the others around you a lot safer.
I would also say it gives you a lot to practice on before you take your first carbine course.
I would also reccomend the video set to anyone that is new to AR shooting.
There are definitly a lot worse places to start.