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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So a friend of mine and I were discussing AR15 Pistols with the slicked pistol buffer tubes the other day. He said you can shoulder that tube if you want and it's legal. He even went as far as to say you can shoulder a tube with something like that sig SBX brace and it's fine.

Refresh my memory... I thought this was illegal. Or would it be illegal only if you had a true stock on it?

Thanks. Sorry if it's posted somewhere else, I'm way too important to use the search button ; )
 

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From: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...n-letter-redesign-stabilizing-braces/download

The pistol stabilizing brace was neither "designed" nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock,
and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a "redesign" of the device because a possessor
has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary
to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.

Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol
(having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18
inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting
firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA.
 

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Samson linked to the pertinent drivel from the BATFE. I don't think that letter is going to hold up in court if it ever gets tested. I think the BATFE knows that, too, which is why they haven't tried. They'd rather scare people into willful compliance than admit they're idiots.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
ok thanks.

So if I put my 1911 on my shoulder it would be legal?
 

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Samson linked to the pertinent drivel from the BATFE. I don't think that letter is going to hold up in court if it ever gets tested. I think the BATFE knows that, too, which is why they haven't tried. They'd rather scare people into willful compliance than admit they're idiots.
Do YOU want to be the one to be the test case? I certainly wouldn't want to. The ATF plays hard ball, and they flat out don't don't give a crap about your or anybody else's opinion on the mattter.
 

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By the ATF's logic it is illegal to shoot your 1911 with two hands since their definition of a handgun says "designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand".
I have wondered about that one. I bet they would tell you that the other hand is there as a pistol stabilizer. That might be good standing for a court challenge. Every police academy, tactical shooting school, everyone teaches a two handed grip on a handgun yet to be a pistol it has to be designed to shoot with one hand and by ATF's logic, shooting with two hands would constitute: " "redesign" of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item."
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey I was just making sure.
 

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brb, grabbing popcorn.
Nothing to see here folks. :a21:
Hey I was just making sure.
The short answer: No, it would not be legal to shoulder the pistol buffer tube or the 1911. I think you would probably regret it with the 1911 anyway though. :a42:
 

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The short answer: No, it would not be legal to shoulder the pistol buffer tube
Except for the fact that that's not actually what the law says...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

The short answer is "The ATF says you can't do it. What the law says doesn't really matter because the ATF has indicated they may try to ruin your life whether you break the law or not."
 

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Except for the fact that that's not actually what the law says...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5845

The short answer is "The ATF says you can't do it. What the law says doesn't really matter because the ATF has indicated they may try to ruin your life whether you break the law or not."
So how about if you explain what the law actually says about this particular subject. I didn't see any reference to it in the page you linked to. Not really sure what the point is you are after here.
 

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Here is the legal definition of a rifle, according to 26 U.S. Code § 5845, on which the ATF's "do-over" letter is based:

(c) Rifle
The term "rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder
That law states that 3 conditions (design, make, and intent) have to be met for a weapon to be considered a rifle. You can't "make" or "design" something (let alone make AND design something) merely by holding/using it wrong.
 

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What about the guy that designed a "stock" that is supported against your chin? (Besides being stupid)

What about all of the padded ball style "bumpers" that guys used to put on the pistol buffer so they could shoulder it.

Has there been a case yet where the atf has arrested anyone for shouldering a pistol?

There are still guys on YouTube shouldering pistols.

The BATF has expressed their opinion on the subject fairly clear.

Use your own judgement as you are the one person that can controll what you do and are responsible for your own actions
 

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Here is the legal definition of a rifle, according to 26 U.S. Code § 5845, on which the ATF's "do-over" letter is based:

That law states that 3 conditions (design, make, and intent) have to be met for a weapon to be considered a rifle. You can't "make" or "design" something (let alone make AND design something) merely by holding/using it wrong.
I thought we were talking about shouldering a pistol not what it takes to make a rifle. By your own link, an AR "pistol" that is intended to be shouldered is considered a "firearm" which is an NFA item. It seems pretty clear to me. right there in the very first line.
(a) Firearm
The term "firearm" means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon, as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer (as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and (8) a destructive device. The term "firearm" shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon.
 

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Woodstock, you are missing the underlying premise of the ATF's revised position. Follow the link in Samson's reply and skip down to page two. The ATF is saying that shouldering a pistol with a brace constitutes "redesign" of the pistol such that it then meets the definition of "rifle". And if you have a "rifle" with a barrel under 16 inches, then it is a SBR and becomes an NFA item. They then spend a paragraph explaining why they think you can "redesign" something merely by manipulation. As far as I know, there is no case law that supports that position. Additionally, they never address "made or remade".
 

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Woodstock, you are missing the underlying premise of the ATF's revised position. Follow the link in Samson's reply and skip down to page two. The ATF is saying that shouldering a pistol with a brace constitutes "redesign" of the pistol such that it then meets the definition of "rifle". And if you have a "rifle" with a barrel under 16 inches, then it is a SBR and becomes an NFA item. They then spend a paragraph explaining why they think you can "redesign" something merely by manipulation. As far as I know, there is no case law that supports that position. Additionally, they never address "made or remade".
No, I understand that and don't take my ribbing seriously. It is just me. What I am saying is that ATF is the agency tasked with interpreting the laws that pertain to the things we are discussing and until there has been a test case before an appeals court or even the supreme court, what ever ATF decides basically is the law. It is the same with any law as it refers to anything. Govt agencies are there to decide what a law means and/or how it will be enforced and until it is ruled on in a court of law, what ever that agency says about it (for all practical purposes) is the law until the courts say otherwise. To the OP and the question at hand, would it be legal to shoulder a bare pistol buffer tube, as I stated the answer is no. Not as the laws are currently being interpreted. If it ever makes it before a judge and ATF is overruled as they should be then that is just the way it is. That is kind of the way our founders set up things to work, with each branch of govt having the power of checks and balances over the others so that no one branch could have too much power. It is not always the way it works but the basic design is solid.
 

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This is my thought. When someone asks this question it would be irresponsible to say it is legal when the atf has issued the letter they have. If you have researched it and feel comfortable with the risk you could be the case trial then go ahead by all means. However to encourage someone else to take that risk without understanding the consequence is just bad advice.

Simple answer. It may or may not be legal. However the atf has issued a letter stating shouldering a pistol makes it a nfa item subject to restrictions and you may end up in legal hot water for doing so.
 

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well....

Screw the BATF anyhow, they are unconstitutional to start with.

Ignore and go about your life.

What I do.
 

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Screw the BATF anyhow, they are unconstitutional to start with.

Ignore and go about your life.

What I do.
then you keep going about your life taking chances. trying to tell someone else to do the same is idiotic so say the least.

there was a member on another board that bought a modified trigger pack for a PS90 and bragged about switching some things around in it saying he was going to do what he wanted to do. little did he know the ATF raided the sellers place and paid every person a visit who purchased one of those trigger packs. they got it and the weapon it was mounted in. it was easier to give up the weapon than it was to try and fight it in court.

in the end, your life and your money. use it how you wish.
 
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