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Ar15 pistol to SBR

2626 Views 21 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Trent, Jun 5, 2016

Trent

Discussion Starter · May 27, 2016

I'm looking at doing my first SBR, and Since I want to beat the new NFA laws for trusts coming up in July. I was gunna ask a question here. If I have to wait for my dealer to get the rifle I want in it will be cutting it close. I'm looking at either an LWRC M6 PSD or a PWS MK107. Both of these rifles are sold in a "Pistol" format without the stock.

Can I Form 1 a factory AR15 pistol? I'm assuming I can since I see guys do it with Glocks and such for those carbine stock adapters. I thought I'd ask if anyone here has done it since it may be the route I take if it's at all possible! As always, thanks Guys!

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

BigWaylon

· #2 · May 27, 2016 (Edited)

Yes. No problem at all.

semi_cop

· #3 · May 27, 2016

^^^ This is absolutely correct. You become the manufacturer when approved to change the pistol to an SBR configuration.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

ncorry

· #4 · May 27, 2016

Not a problem. I usually build mine as a pistol so I can shoot it and work up loads while waiting on the Form 1 to clear. While waiting, I also go ahead and send the lower off to Grey Laser in Texas to have the engraving done. Usually a 6 or 7 door to door experience.

Focoryan

· #5 · May 27, 2016

Order as a pistol, and order the stock you want. Swap to your sbr stock, take measurements. File form 1. Put pistol setup back on, shoot it while you wait. I've done a few that way

smartShooter

· #6 · May 27, 2016

Not to hijack, but what's changing in the laws involving trusts? I know a CLEO signature is no longer required. What else is changing?

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kapp_badbloodz

· #7 · May 27, 2016

smartShooter said:
Not to hijack, but what's changing in the laws involving trusts? I know a CLEO signature is no longer required. What else is changing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ATF 41F makes every "responsible party" (excluding beneficiaries) responsible for getting fingerprinted and passport photo ID submitted for every single new NFA purchase. There was a discrepency with verbiage where you would only have to do it every 2 years as long as information and parties on the trust have not changed. From researching it a bit more some people think this is false and will submit it for every application. ATF has not yet clarified what it means with the 2 year stipulation.

If you dont have a trust yet just wait and register as an individual. Unless you plan to use the trust for some estate planning and letting people borrow your items without you being present then a trust really inst the best option. 41F removes CLEO signature and only requires written notification. So a trust would not require you to notify the CLEO if you would like that option as well.

For me: I just dumped like 5K on all the crap I wanted and will just build slowly. I cant even tell you how many lowers ive submitted and parts ive purchased to beat the deadline. I went from buying one can to buying 3 (and winning one for free

)

It sucks but weigh your options carefully. you may not need a trust if you dont have one.

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BigWaylon

· #8 · May 27, 2016 (Edited)

kapp_badbloodz said:
ATF 41F makes every "responsible party" (excluding beneficiaries) responsible for getting fingerprinted and passport photo ID submitted for every single new NFA purchase. There was a discrepency with verbiage where you would only have to do it every 2 years as long as information and parties on the trust have not changed. From researching it a bit more some people think this is false and will submit it for every application. ATF has not yet clarified what it means with the 2 year stipulation.

There's nothing to clarify. The 24-month window applies to supporting documentation...like the trust, articles of incorporation, etc. Fingerprints and photos have to be submitted every time for individuals and all responsible persons of the entity.

Trent

Discussion Starter · #9 · May 27, 2016

smartShooter said:
Not to hijack, but what's changing in the laws involving trusts? I know a CLEO signature is no longer required. What else is changing?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly what they said. I'll have to send in photos and fingerprints for all my trustee's None at the moment) and myself. It's not a problem but I'd prefer to just not have to do the rest of that stuff.

you also will have to send in a form to your local Chief LEO as notification for buying any NFA items. Better than getting sign off, although my local Chief LEO's will sign off no problem.

I'm going to order the ICPSD pistol sometime this next week! All my lowers are mated to 16" uppers already so I'm going to just register the pistol lower it comes with as the SBR lower. That is okay right? As long as I don't have the stock kit until I get approved correct?

its going to be the same stock setup as my ICSPR so I can use it as a measurement.

BigWaylon

· #10 · May 28, 2016 (Edited)

Trent said:
you also will have to send in a form to your local Chief LEO as notification for buying any NFA items. Better than getting sign off, although my local Chief LEO's will sign off no problem.

Just a minor point...doesn't necessarily have to be "local" in the sense most people think. There are multiple state-level employees you can send it to if you want to stay a little more off the grid, especially for those in small towns where the sheriff/chief knows everybody.

I believe SS has said they'll take care of the notification for their SSPB customers, and they'll be sent to a state-level employee (which will be less of a headache to figure out who to send it to)

pdlane43

· #11 · May 28, 2016

semi_cop said:
^^^ This is absolutely correct. You become the manufacturer when approved to change the pistol to an SBR configuration.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

What is your source for that info? I'm not calling you out, I'd just like to know where other guys look for info.

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semi_cop

· #12 · May 28, 2016

pdlane43 said:
What is your source for that info? I'm not calling you out, I'd just like to know where other guys look for info.

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It's spelled out on the ATF's web site. I've dealt with this stuff for 16+ years and have buddies that are SOT's. If you doubt it call the ATF.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

pdlane43

· #13 · May 28, 2016

semi_cop said:
It's spelled out on the ATF's web site. I've dealt with this stuff for 16+ years and have buddies that are SOT's. If you doubt it call the ATF.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

I hope you don't take it negatively. I just need to be able to see it from the ATF. Thanks for the source info. I just hadn't seen that on their site yet

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semi_cop

· #14 · May 28, 2016 (Edited)

pdlane43 said:
I hope you don't take it negatively. I just need to be able to see it from the ATF. Thanks for the source info. I just hadn't seen that on their site yet

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk

There's no telling how many times this has been discussed on the forum.
If you don't know, you have to find out somehow

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

BigWaylon

· #15 · May 28, 2016 (Edited)

pdlane43 said:
I hope you don't take it negatively. I just need to be able to see it from the ATF. Thanks for the source info. I just hadn't seen that on their site yet

What exactly are you needing to see? You have an existing firearm you want to make into an SBR. The process to do this is to file a Form 1.

Are you concerned in some way that the host firearm is a pistol instead of a 16" rifle? If so, what about all the Glock SBR conversion kits.

If you're wanting to see an actual line item on atf.gov to validate the answer, you're probably out of luck...but you also won't find something that says you can't, which is how our legal system works.

semi_cop

· #16 · May 28, 2016

As BW stated, your not going to find a line item verbatim answer to your question. The process and form 1 is the same regardless if the host is a stripped lower or already a firing operational pistol, in that since your paying $200 for a stamp to add a stock.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

Trent

Discussion Starter · #17 · May 29, 2016

BigWaylon said:
What exactly are you needing to see? You have an existing firearm you want to make into an SBR. The process to do this is to file a Form 1.

Are you concerned in some way that the host firearm is a pistol instead of a 16" rifle? If so, what about all the Glock SBR conversion kits.

If you're wanting to see an actual line item on atf.gov to validate the answer, you're probably out of luck...but you also won't find something that says you can't, which is how our legal system works.

Thats why I figured it was legal but I thought I'd ask. Google it and you will find all sorts of mixed stuff about doing ar15's and people trying to scare everyone with being charged with intent to build. Which when you file a form 1, you do have intent to build a SBR. That's why you file it. I have a few guys who visit the same range as us who shoot glocks that have been registered as SBR's.

Thanks for your help answering this question for me guys! I couldn't find it digging through the ATF's website. I'm going to get started on this ASAP!

Krusty783

· #18 · May 30, 2016

Trent said:
Thats why I figured it was legal but I thought I'd ask. Google it and you will find all sorts of mixed stuff about doing ar15's and people trying to scare everyone with being charged with intent to build. Which when you file a form 1, you do have intent to build a SBR. That's why you file it. I have a few guys who visit the same range as us who shoot glocks that have been registered as SBR's.

Thanks for your help answering this question for me guys! I couldn't find it digging through the ATF's website. I'm going to get started on this ASAP!

The NFA was more of an encumbrance when it was implemented because most firearms were factory assembled. People could get engraving or have a rifle re-bedded maybe, but that was about it. The modularity of the AR15 has rendered the NFA moot and illustrated the absurdity of it and the ATF letters concerning SBR/SBS's.

Constructive intent in terms of AR's means either A) you assembled a stock on a pistol & fired it and someone has proof or B) You have a collection of parts which can only be assembled as an unregistered SBR - only unregistered lower(s) with buttstock extension(s) (i.e. "rifles") and upper(s) w/ barrel<16". If your parts can be assembled in compliant manner(s) then you are not guilty of constructive intent.

BigWaylon

· #19 · May 30, 2016 (Edited)

Constructive intent doesn't exist in the NFA world. Constructive possession does, and applies in the scenarios people usually describe when using CI.

S717

· #20 · May 30, 2016

semi_cop said:
^^^ This is absolutely correct. You become the manufacturer when approved to change the pistol to an SBR configuration.

Sent from a final firing position, the crosshairs are on you!

People tend to get confused and mess up on their form 1 by the tiny wording difference but you become the Maker not the manufacturer when you file a form 1 and "make" a SBR. You will find the Maker wording in the NFA hand book.

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