[Kansas boy]

How can Paul be the 1st if non-Jews were being saved as recorded in Acts before Paul's road to Damascus experience? What about the 120 followers in Acts 2 and the 3000 added to those being saved?

I bet the greek word translated as "first" is not what we think it is.

 

[Nick M]

Paul says he is the pattern, the first in it. That means what it says. The Bible from the start, reinforced in the red letters, explicitly call into question your behavior. Paul explicitly states in the pattern that he is first in, behavior is not called into question.

All of you follow logic. A billion people can say Paul doesn't mean what it says, and you all know that(a billion people saying the same thing) doesn't make it so.

Very clear examples can be given, and we can do that if people want. A hint at it is how Paul refers to Abraham before circumcision, and James refers to him after circumcision. Besides the content of gospels "good news" those giving it tell us it is different.

 

[Kansas boy]

I probably shouldn't bite on this, but hopefully we all won't regret it...

1 Timothy 1:15-16 King James Version
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New American Standard Bible
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those [a]who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New International Version
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 1:15-16 - New American Standard Bible (easily adjusted to any one of the 50ish available versions here)

Are you saying that because an english translation is using the english word "first" here, that Paul and everyone after him are saved differently from those before and that it's different from the 4 gospels where it's written in red?

 

[Kansas boy]

I just realized we should probably start a new thread and not hijack this one with a new topic.

 

[Wolverine Fan]

I don't see it as hijacked, I see it as a continuation after the resurrection.

 

[zztopman1]

It's not really hijacked at all...

Oh and BTW:

I probably shouldn't bite on this, but hopefully we all won't regret it...

1 Timothy 1:15-16 King James Version
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New American Standard Bible
15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost. 16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost sinner Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those [a]who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 New International Version
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 1:15-16 - New American Standard Bible (easily adjusted to any one of the 50ish available versions here)

Are you saying that because an english translation is using the english word "first" here, that Paul and everyone after him are saved differently from those before and that it's different from the 4 gospels where it's written in red?

EXACTLY!!!
Ya want another tid bit, Paul actually wrote and gave most of his letters (ie. Romans) to the Jews who were in those communities because it was the Jews who taught the Greeks at that time.
The Greek believers had no way of understanding even the concept of a Jewish Messiah unless they were taught in the synagogues by Messianic Jews. This would be true for about 150 years, which is longer than our lifetime. Greeks were for a long time only taught the Salvation of Yeshua through Jews who taught them. A Greek reading a letter from Paul on his own would have thought it to be TOTAL nonsense according to the Greek's Hellenistic beliefs.
It is ALSO quite possible that some of Paul's letters were then written to his fellowmen in Hebrew and it was up to them to translate into Greek while teaching the Greeks. I said quite possible.
Anyway, it is also quite IMPOSSIBLE to completely convey Hebrew words and thoughts into Greek words because there in thousands of words that have NO EQUAL word in Greek to mean the Hebrew.

 

[Ratdog68]

Many say that, despite that fact that he says other wise. How is he the worst sinner? He was rotten, no doubt. Worse than others? No. That does not fit the context nor "as a pattern". Israelites had to endure to the end, keep all of the law, etc. Paul was baptized into Christ, were he could not die. He was the first.

16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life

If you notice, the red letters are quite a bit different than what Paul preaches. But what Paul preached was from the risen Lord Jesus Christ. And besides, "protos" means first, a prototype, the first like it. This is all of us today that are Christian.

My last sentence clarifies my point.

" As humans, WE put degrees on sin, and we're most hard on ourselves when we're truly honest about it."

 

[Nick M]

Are you saying that because an english translation is using the english word "first" here, that Paul

Paul said first. Not me. English translators applied chief or worst for "proto" I don't know Greek, but you probably don't need a 7 year degree to know what a prototype is. Besides, the context shows it to be true. Paul blasphemed (spoke against) the Holy Spirit, and was saved. His sin could not be arbitrarily forgiven, water washed or anything else. Only being baptized into Christ, where there is no sin, could save him. And it happened.

See all the rest of the Bible for things like that not happening. In early Acts, they were not to trade with the beast, and lived communally, in preparation of Jacob's trouble, aka the great tribulation. People kept some of their funds, then lied about it. They probably had the Acts 2 baptizm of the Holy Spirit, with power over the flesh, tongues, prophecy, miracles are examples of power over the flesh. And they were executed by the sharp sword from the mouth, where they now sit in the prison we call hell. Now, that happens to those that reject reconciliation and the free gift.

No, not a hijack, more like a tangent on things that aren't normal study. Like divisions, and the date of his birth, when the crucifixion was, etc. Paul said he was first, and a prototype, an example to the new dispensation, yet many translators changed first to worst.

 

[Nick M]

I fall into the camp of growing up in a Christian world, and being told by consensus how it is. Then, i read the Bible, and found out why so many reject tradition and just go with what the Bible says. I stand fast in the liberty I have in Christ, and I will not be brought into bondage. Paul said that. It is in direct contradiction to what James, brother of the Lord Jesus Christ said in his letters and instructions. I accept that it is 2 messages for 2 groups. One being the Israelites and their coming kingdom on earth. The other being the remnant saved after the fall of Israel, and the gentiles brought in.

As humans, WE put degrees on sin, and we're most hard on ourselves when we're truly honest about it

We do. I think the hard part for people is thinking they are good people, and in their heart they don't want to hurt anyone, then think that will pass judgment without spot or blemish. When Paul clearly said even those did not sin like Adam died because of what he did. Died spiritually, as the wages of sin is death.

 

[Ducatim900]

Interesting conversation. Having been raised Catholic, an altar boy learning the Latin, it was discoursing when all of a sudden we could eat meat on Friday. Then I drove my aunt to Florida to her house and stayed awhile, and the church there preached the almighty dollar. I grew apart from the church, but never from GOD. In my times of trouble, prayer has always worked. Something I try to be faithful too every night and again in the morning.

Now, does anybody think we are seeing the signs of the Lord coming again?

 

[Kansas boy]

Interesting conversation. Having been raised Catholic, an altar boy learning the Latin, it was discoursing when all of a sudden we could eat meat on Friday. Then I drove my aunt to Florida to her house and stayed awhile, and the church there preached the almighty dollar. I grew apart from the church, but never from GOD. In my times of trouble, prayer has always worked. Something I try to be faithful too every night and again in the morning.

That's an encouraging story. Thanks for sharing. Reminds me that the religion of men always lets us down, but The Almighty Creator of the Heavens and earth is Faithful and True to those who call upon Him in spirit and truth!

Now, does anybody think we are seeing the signs of the Lord coming again?

I think we could start a new thread that would never end, discussing the apparent signs of His soon return. They are everywhere you look, if you have eyes to see...

 

[earlytom]

...Now, does anybody think we are seeing the signs of the Lord coming again?

I would say that he hasn't left us. Never leaving us or forsaking is. I would also say that he is on his way...

 

[zztopman1]

So, you don't wake up every morning and say "WOW!!!! I can't believe this country is now ....." and most of what we are WOWing about is agnostics getting their way??
Signs of the end?? YEAH, everywhere, however, we cannot be so self centered to think that what happens to just us here in the USA is the gauge by which to judge how close and when He is coming back. Right?
Even tho we were one of the last countries in the world to put God 1st, also doesn't mean He cannot take his hand off our country (if He hasn't already) to get our ATTENTION to RETURN.... (shuv)
Turn your back to the world, you are now facing God, walk to Him.

Having been raised Catholic, an altar boy learning the Latin, it was discoursing when all of a sudden we could eat meat on Friday.

You want some encouraging reading that I'm even surprised is from a Msgr.

8 Modern Errors Every Catholic Should Know and Avoid| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

And another one, Six Cultural Trends that Challenge the Modern Evangelizer - Community in Mission (adw.org) Even if you're not an "Evengelizer"

This guy writes some good stuff!!!

 

[Wolverine Fan]

I would say that he hasn't left us. Never leaving us or forsaking is. I would also say that he is on his way...

Many times throughout history societies have said it was the end times. I grew up in the 1960s and 70s. It wasn't much better (other than the schools weren't trying to brainwash you to hate the US and it wasn't so PC). The Lord is coming, but only at a time of his choosing.

Matthew 24:42
Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come.

Luke 12:37
Blessed are those servants whom the master finds on watch when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve and will have them recline at the table, and he himself will come and wait on them.

Revelation 16:15 15"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

This is why you/we should prepare ourselves, for we know not the day or the time of his return.

 

[Kansas boy]

I agree that we can't know the day or hour, but we can know the season.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24 - New International Version

 

[Nick M]

Make sure you keep the advise for this dispensation (administration). That only refers to how we know that God has dealt with us humans differently at different times. And Paul said (while stating don't live like a heathen)....

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Wolverine Fan]

You can apply several verses from Proverbs 29 to today's administration (maybe all of them);


Proverbs 29
King James Version

2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

4 The king by judgment establisheth the land: but he that receiveth gifts overthroweth it.

11 A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards.

12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.

15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

16 When the wicked are multiplied, transgression increaseth: but the righteous shall see their fall. 18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

20 Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

24 Whoso is partner with a thief hateth his own soul: he heareth cursing, and bewrayeth it not.

25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe.

26 Many seek the ruler's favour; but every man's judgment cometh from the Lord.

27 An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.


Sorry if this is rather long for the feed, but I felt this really applies to today's situation. What's really amazing, being Old Testament, was written over 2000 years ago and it is still relevant.

 

[zztopman1]

Wolverine