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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hornady BLACK 6.8 SPC Ammunition 20 Rounds V-Max 110 Grains 83464 | Cheaper Than Dirt

CheaperThanDirt has some Hornady Black up for sale. It's the V-Max bullet which XMan did testing on and will frag down to around 1700 ~ 1800 fps. I spoke with DHA and he has a lot of guys using the V-Max for Deer as well, you will not get an exit, but it completely obliterates the heart and lungs, usually a DRT with adequate shot placement. Gel testing I've seen shows around 13 to 15 inches of penetration and I can say that Hornady's factory ammo is highly reliable in terms of cycling as the run a slower burning powder that provides good port pressure for mid-length gassed barrels.

I just bought some Black to replace the DHA that I got a refund for due to cycling issues. The DHA ammo is NOT bad or defective, however for my requirements I need to run a full powered buffer spring on a mid-length and be able to both lock open on the last round without having issues going back into battery all with a dirty action and full 25rd magazine given the dual purpose nature of my 68. High reliability under adverse conditions is important for my application. For anyone looking for a hunting load for deer or hogs, the 110gr Nossler from DHA is still an excellent choice and you can get away with a reduced power buffer spring or forgo last round lock back as long as it cycles.

Tip: use JP or Wilson Combat one piece gas rings, they significantly reduce the drag compared to GI spec 3 piece gas rings which helps the rifle go back into battery with less mass or with reduced powered buffer springs.

In my Daniels 5R 1:11 barrel I was getting around 2650 FPS average. I'm waiting for the return slip to come, but I suspect once DHA gets what I'm returning, they can put it back up on the market for everyone else, so keep an eye out for it in the next week or two. For anyone running a mid-length gas system, to run the DHA 110gr Nossler, you WILL either have to use a reduced power buffer spring (which I tried) or remove one weight from the carbine buffer (which is what DHA recommends to anyone having cycling issues). Anyone running a carbine length gas system should be fine due to the longer dwell time and higher port pressure.

Also my testing revealed muzzle velocity sensitivity to the timing and gas settings on the BCG. So I suspect carbine gas systems are lossy as are gas systems running a very high carrier speed (like competition guns). A chrono is a good tool to look for leaks in the system via monitoring average velocity. And with an adjustable gas block, you can play around with choking off gas flow and buffer weights etc.

I used my chrono as a tool to monitor average velocity over 7 shot strings and found that more gas flow with a lighter BCG dropped my average velocity by as much as 17 FPS. Not huge, but you don't want to run more gas than you really need both from a fouling, velocity and component life standpoint.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
BTW early unlocking the BCG is not just discernable via ejection angle, but also by muzzle velocity. Case in point, GI issue M4's running carbine gas system shooting Lake City M855 (62gr) would typically produce a muzzle velocity of about 2700 FPS. That's a 14.5" barrel with a NATO chamber. But my Daniels 16" with a NATO chamber produces 2949 FPS average from M855....1.5 inches is NOT going to drop 250 FPS of muzzle velocity. That's due to early unlocking of the over gassed carbine length gas port and the inability to choke off excess gas flow (which results in a restriction that increases the pressure drop on the other side).

So I would highly recommend a chrono (especially one with blue tooth as you can set your phone by you and log the data) as a cheap trouble shooting tool for cycling issues or for tuning the BCG etc. I've used it extensively along side other traditional methods to optimize timing for my particular upper.

Here are some examples of the differences:

References: standard BCG is 11 oz, carbine buffer is 3oz. Total BCG / buffer weight is 14oz. I run a JP SCS buffer system, the 85% black buffer spring (default of 5) is roughly equivalent to a GI buffer spring. I also run NiB low mass BCG's in both my uppers, I can go from a total weight of 13.9oz which is same as a standard setup or down to 11.5oz.

Given that I run SLR Sentry 7 adjustable gas blocks, I opted for adjustability from standard to low mass vs. standard to high mass to keep the recoil impulse low. Also Hornady's muzzle velocity specification for 110gr OTM, which was the tuning load, is 2570 FPS from 16" barrel.

Configuration 1: Gas setting 8 from closed, 1 Tungsten / 2 Steel buffer weights (total BCG mass 12.3oz), 85% black buffer spring: average velocity 2594 FPS, ejection in the 3:30 to 4 range, cycles and locks back on last round when shouldered, but will NOT lock back on last round when free floating the butt stock for CQB holds.

Configuration 2: Gas setting 9 from closed (aka MORE gas flow), 1 Tungsten / 2 Steel buffer weights (total BCG mass of 12.3oz), 85% black buffer spring: average velocity 2577 FPS, ejection in the 2 to 2:30 range, cycles and locks back last round when shouldered and when not shouldered.

Configuration 3: Gas setting 9 from closed, 2 Tungsten / 1 Steel buffer weight (total BCG mass of 13.1oz), 85% black buffer spring: average velocity 2584 FPS, ejection in the 2:30 to 3 range, cycles and locks back on last round when shouldered and when not shouldered.

This is all on the same day within a 20 minute period, same batch of ammo, same gun, same chrono etc. So I settled on configuration 3 for it's balance of reliability, recoil impulse and average muzzle velocity.
 

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I would never buy anything from cheaper than dirt. . They are known for price gouging and just trying to take advantage of people. I'm sure anybody who lived through the Obama years will tell you.
Texas has a suit against them now for it.
If ammo companies are telling the truth and have not increased prices to the large companies I would say it's hard to find anyone not price gouging . Is there a middle man between mid way , mid south , p. s. a. and others or do they get ammo from manufacturers? If so then there lies the answer if not then they are all guilty of gouging .

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If ammo companies are telling the truth and have not increased prices to the large companies I would say it's hard to find anyone not price gouging . Is there a middle man between mid way , mid south , p. s. a. and others or do they get ammo from manufacturers? If so then there lies the answer if not then they are all guilty of gouging .

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EXACTLY THIS
 

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If ammo companies are telling the truth and have not increased prices to the large companies I would say it's hard to find anyone not price gouging . Is there a middle man between mid way , mid south , p. s. a. and others or do they get ammo from manufacturers? If so then there lies the answer if not then they are all guilty of gouging .

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Many retail stores have resorted to buying from "middle men" at jacked up prices just so they can have something on their shelves. I know in this area that Academy Sports and Wal Mart are still selling ammo at fairly normal prices. I am not sure how it is decided who gets what from the manufacturer or the wholesale distributors but I know that there is very little to nothing available through normal channels for me.
There is a local "guy" here who will sell me all the ammo I want if I want to pay crazy prices and several local shops are buying from him. Not sure how he can get ammo when we can't but it is not worth it to me to pay those prices. I just tell customers that I have no ammo to go with the guns I sell them because I will not sell ammo at a dollar a round.
I agree with Coyote Conquest though, CTD will never see a dime of my money. I remember what they did after Sandy Hook.
 

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If ammo companies are telling the truth and have not increased prices to the large companies I would say it's hard to find anyone not price gouging . Is there a middle man between mid way , mid south , p. s. a. and others or do they get ammo from manufacturers? If so then there lies the answer if not then they are all guilty of gouging .

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Those companies get it direct. So does SG ammo
I am a dealer direct to S&B.
I have an order in for 100,000 to 200,000 pieces of S&B 6.8 brass. As well as 10mm, 9mm, and 5.56 ammo
They will not quote me prices as they are following the market. They have always quoted prices in the past.
They also said they are raising prices to follow what Vista, Winchester etc are doing.
They are raising prices, whoever says they are not in misinformed.
This info is straight from the factory, not he said she said.
There are also a bunch of military contracts in the hopper of most ammunition manufactures.

Another thing no one is talking about is the prices of raw materials.
Copper, brass etc has doubled in the last 12 months. Not just gone up a bit, its doubled and still climbing.
 

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We set the price to some extent . I do realize everything has gone up , which we all knew back in Nov . that It would , And the ripple effect inflates everything . If people refuse to buy at higher prices it becomes a double edged sword . On one hand, sooner or later, prices will come down as much as production costs allow as per the supply and demand rule . The bad side is a lot of smaller businesses will not be able to keep the doors open if they have to pay more for ammo than Mr. Big sells it for and may not have the capital to keep swimming until things level out . Myself , I'm getting a lot more practice with my bow lately . It's cheaper and I get a lot of exercise walking back and forth retreaving arrows .

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Those companies get it direct. So does SG ammo
I am a dealer direct to S&B.
I have an order in for 100,000 to 200,000 pieces of S&B 6.8 brass. As well as 10mm, 9mm, and 5.56 ammo
They will not quote me prices as they are following the market. They have always quoted prices in the past.
They also said they are raising prices to follow what Vista, Winchester etc are doing.
They are raising prices, whoever says they are not in misinformed.
This info is straight from the factory, not he said she said.
There are also a bunch of military contracts in the hopper of most ammunition manufactures.

Another thing no one is talking about is the prices of raw materials.
Copper, brass etc has doubled in the last 12 months. Not just gone up a bit, its doubled and still climbing.
What I know is that the last case of 5.56 PMC Tac ammo from Davidson's was about 3 months ago and cost delivered to my door was $328. A few months prior I got a case of 115gr 9mm FMJ from Davidson's and cost delivered was $269 if memory serves. Maybe things have gone up since then concerning ammo but I know that most guns I have recently purchased from wholesale distributors are the same price they were 18 months ago. I just sold a new in box Glock 19 G3 that cost me $440. Same price it was when the first came out a few years ago.
When I visit any of the wholesale distributors sites the ammo prices have changed very little if any. The problem is they rarely have anything in stock. That would indicate to me that the US based manufacturers at least are not raising their prices by much. Sure, normal cost increases but none of this dollar a round BS that we are seeing from retailers. That is what I am referring to.
 

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Add all of that and not being able to get powder or primers and you have the perfect storm. Hind site being 20 / 20, I can kick myself for not buying when I had the chance. Having said that, that's hard to do when you are on a limited budget, between jobs and try to pay your bills. Have to have priorities, sometimes that's not ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
At $1.22 a round for 6.8 SPC factory ammo from Hornady, I think that's a good price in the current climate. I can't find even Prvi Partizan (very underpowered) at that price. Handloading is one thing, but most people do not hand load, they shoot factory loads or custom loads from DHA, either way it's loaded by a supplier or small shop etc. Hornady Black is basically their V-Max marketed as a home defense load (which is certainly would be extremely good at that).
 

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After seeing what the 110 V-Max does to Prairie Dogs, I'll be looking for some of that. Those whistle dogs were exploding with the 110 V-Max. I can use those on some ground hogs.
 
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