6.8 SPC Bullet Performance

Ammunition Attrition · Sep 16, 2015

FightFireJay said:
I wonder if this was a difference between TSX and Tac, or just a difference made to both and one is an old batch and the other a new lot of bullets? The world may never know.

I also recall hearing that the two bullet series are identical, minus extra inspection/testing that is used to determine consistency of the mil/le projectiles. But for the life of me I cannot remember where I got that information, so maybe I dreamed it.

Heck, I could be wrong. Now I've got to go dig in the bullet boxes to confirm...after this inning.

The Triple Shock 85g are significantly longer from the base to the first skive/cannelure than are the TACs of same weight. That would at least lead me to believe the TSX is maybe going to hold together better at max velocities on bone/hard objects.
Perhaps a "born on date" would be the only way to know when each was produced.

Xman · Sep 16, 2015

1stmarine, muscle tissue is around 75% water. I didn't feel clay materials have that much water content to be representative of tissue. I did study gelatin before I went down the path I did. You have to make (cook) gelatin and it should be maintained around 60 F for consistent test results. I run tests in ambient from 35 to 100F in the sun and have an hour's drive to the range. I started out testing mostly monolithic bullets. A water jug provides the needed hydraulic action to get these type of projectiles to expand. The monolithic bullets I have recovered from game have matched pretty much exactly with test results (you can see that in several section of this thread). Fragmentation bullets work well in the water jug/phonebook set-up but it was evident that softer lead-core bullets that relied on expansion were continuing to deform in the phonebook. gicos requested I test with a large stack of wet-soaked paper as the only capture medium when I tested his 130gr Speer Hot Core. Monolithic bullets recovered in either method had the same expansion (one test was exactly the same to a 0.001" - 130 GMX). I did find that Hornady's second generation GMX was loosing the initial part of their pedals in the phonebook and have to be tested in the wet-soaked paper stack to record representative expansion. Also in the wet-soaked paper, softer lead-core bonded bullets were no longer being unnecessarily deformed and had better mushrooms similar to gelatin. Fragmentation bullets like the SST would still have some fragmentation but would not have lead-core separation which is counter to what I've experienced on deer.

I typically conduct 16 to 24 tests in one range session. A jug of water costs 90 cents at Walmart and I've collected phonebooks for free because everyone gets rid of them the day after they are delivered. You would be surprised what you can read from the impact and remains of a water jug and I've correlated penetration into the phonebook with performance on deer and elk. It takes awhile to collect enough newspapers from friends to build a trap of water-soaked newspapers. I refined the technique by stacking Walmart plastic bags filled with 4" thickness of newspaper weighted down in a large cooler full of water before I drive to the range. By the time I get there, everything is saturated and I can stack the bags of paper (minus excess water) in a rack at least 24" deep. It is easy to lift and move around the small parcels where the entire 24" section weights too much to handle. The separation of the newspaper via plastic bags also makes it easy to track the projectile(s) through the medium and recover the remains of the slug. Fragments are hardly ever found in the wet newspaper where it is very easy to recover fragments in the phonebook. It is also easy to see the wound channel in the water-soaked newspaper. With the water jug and phonebook method, the wound channel is recorder in the foam board placed between the jug and phonebook.

There is enough variation of bullet performance in the field that no simulated method of testing is perfect. I've conducted close to 400 tests. I've been testing .223, .243, and .308 bullets lately. I was going to write a book but don't have time and waiting to post the results just makes them less relevant. I may just start posting here or start another thread.

346CI · Sep 16, 2015

Xman, a little off topic but if you can find someone who does coupons, that is your source for newspapers. I haven't bought packing material in 3 years, lol.

1stmarine · Sep 16, 2015

Xman,
I see.
I am just thinking out loud nothing else. Specially thinking how to make it easier, inexpensive yet as accurate as possible.
Paper seems to be a very good way after all.
Have you shot soaked papers only w/o the water jug?

Thanks for all your work! if you need any bullets I am willing to donate although I might not have anything new you have not tested before.
Anyway just ask.

Xman · Sep 17, 2015

1stmarine, you ask good questions. All the water-soaked testing (alternative bullet trap) has done without a water jug. The water-soaked bullet trap has its advantage with soft-lead expanding bullets. Its neutral with monolithic except for GMX 2nd gen. I don't feel it is the best for fragmentation bullets which I often test with both methods which helps as a control. Depending on the energy level of the impacts, I can get only 8 to 16 tests done in one range session with the alternative bullet trap. If you have any bullets you would like test or see one that hasn't been tested here, I'm always looking for contributors. Thanks for the consideration.

1stmarine · Sep 17, 2015

I don't have anything you have not tested in 6.8 but I was asking because I want to test some 35 caliber heavy hoochie mommas with the 35 gunner.
I think the 180gr at 2500fps are going to disintegrate. But the 180gr TTSX, 180gr Accubond and 225gr SGK and few others should make some big bad azz cavities.
There is a lot of kinetic energy and then the broader section so I am expecting good results. I am trying to decide what to use for the game this season.
I know this is for the 6.8 but I am learning from your experience so perhaps I can do something that is ok to see what the 35 heavies do.
I think the 200gr hornday SST might do the trick for deer, what do you think?
Thanks.

Xman · Sep 17, 2015

First, as energy goes up, the number of bullets a trap can absorb goes down. I can do as many as a dozen .223s into one trap, 6 or so in .243 or 6.8mm, 3 in .270 or .308, but only 1 maybe 2 in .300 WinMag (I call it the one and done test). To get the .308 monolithic bullets to expand to the bottom of their expansion cavities, it requires the energy levels of the WinMag, .308 Win just can't do it. If you are up close with a .35-cal firearm, it might beat the bullet trap up pretty bad.

The reason I think the 120 SST does so well in the 6.8 is its not at a high energy level. I personally would not us an SST in a high-power rifle as a meat hunter or on game that needs penetration (elk). So if you are really considering an SST in .35, test it with a water jug and phonebook to see how bad it fragments and if the lead core separates from the copper jacket. TSX will out expand a TTSX but both will have very consistent expansion and penetration. SGK were too hard in .277 and needed a lot of energy to fragment. If this translates to .35, I would favor the TSX/TTSX and Accubond. I've tested Accubonds (including recovered from game) in .270 and 7MM and they hold together well for a bonded lead-core but not as well as the two 6.8mm AccuBonds. The non-6.8 ABs can loose 40% or more in weight where the 6.8mm ABs retain about 80%. (these AB comments do not apply to LongRange which is so soft you can't always pull the bullets and typically retain only 33% of its weight).

I'd be interested in your results as I've not tested larger than .308. IM me if needed.

Xman · Nov 15, 2015

Additional 130 and 110 grain Bullet Terminal Performance Testing

Thank Kyfho for contributing two more 130 grain bullets to the Bullet Performance Thread bring the group total to 13 for the 130 grain pills. The two new additions are Hornady's InterLock and Woodleigh's Protected Point Soft Nose (PP SN). In addition, I have finally been able to find Sellier & Bellot 110gr Plastic Tip Special (PTS) that can be compared with Hornady's 110gr Vmax. All four bullets are shown in the line-up below along with some comparative bullets of the same weight.

6.8 SPC II - 18" ARP 1:11 barrel
110gr Hornady Vmax - 2615 fps (factory) [BC 0.370]
110gr S&B PTS - 2624 fps (factory) [BC 0.370]
130gr Hornady InterLock - 2475 fps (29.0gr H335) [BC 0.409]
130gr Woodleigh PP SN- 2478 fps (29.0gr H335) [BC 0.409]

Caution - these loads worked in my rifle but this is no guarantee that they will work safely in yours.

Go to the First Page for Quick Links to all the 6.8 bullets tested by type

Xman · Nov 15, 2015

130gr Hornady InterLock and Woodleigh PP SN

Hornady's InterLock is a typical jacketed lead-core bullet like the SST but without a ballistic tip. The InterLock's cannelure were just inside the case mouth when loaded to 2.295" COAL. Woodleigh's PP SN is a bonded core bullet similar to the Fusion. Woodleigh's bullets are produced in Australia. All bullets shown were recovered from the alternative bullet trap constructed with water-soaked newspapers. These two bullets showed different terminal performance characteristics.

The InterLock demonstrated good expansion and weight retention even when impact velocities were 1900 fps. It will likely shed its core if the copper jacket expansion goes beyond the cannelure which is characteristic of the SST. The InterLock shot in the water jug/phonebook trap at 25 yards penetrated through 1500 pages of phonebook and one magazine (1100 pages should be a pass through on a deer). The InterLock should be suitable for use in the 6.8mm.

Woodleigh's Protected Point Soft Nose (PP SN) is advertised as having a minimum opening velocity of 1900 fps. This may be the correct value for heavier .308 bullets with more energy but the .277 130 gr bullet had a min opening velocity closer to 2100 fps. Bullet expansion is based on kinetic energy which .308 bullets typically have more of so a heaver .308 bullet of similar construction will expand at a lower velocity than a lighter .270 bullet. The bullet shown with an impact velocity of 2161 fps (equivalent of a 125 yard shot in the 6.8mm) showed minimal expansion along with signs of tumbling after impact. A bullet must expand/shorten enough to stay stable on impact or the bullet tumbles. The left most bullet was recovered at 25 yards (2427 fps) showed the desired expansion but expansion was only to one side of the bullet. This was the case with every PP SN recovered and may be an anomaly of this lot of bullets. The PP SN bullet shot in the water jug/phonebook trap was a duplicate of the left one shown and penetrated through 1350 pages of the phonebook (1100 pages should be a pass through on a deer). The two bullets shot at velocities 2000 fps and lower did not expand, yawed on impact, and exited out the side and top of the bullet trap. The one out the top was recovered laying on the ground. Overall, expansion dropped off faster with the PP SN than the better performing 130gr bullets.

Xman · Nov 15, 2015

110 grain Hornady V-MAX and Sellier & Bellot PTS Side-by-Side Comparison

The Hornady V-MAX and Sellier & Bellot Plastic Tip Special (PTS) are typical jacketed lead-core bullets with ballistic tips. Sellier & Bellot is a Czech Company that also makes a popular 110 FMJ for the 6.8mm. Their FMJ is only good for target shooting while the PTS is good for target and hunting. Follow the link below to view terminal performance testing of the 110 S&B FMJ.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthre.../showthread.php?33178-6-8-SPC-Bullet-Performance&p=605488&viewfull=1#post605488

The Vmax and PTS look very similar and several, including myself, had assumed the PTS was a version of the V-MAX. Though similar, the PTS is a different bullet being 0.011" shorter than the V-MAX with a slightly different ogive and boat-tail. The first picture shows a close comparison of the bullets. The PTS's ball powder charge varied between 30.1 and 30.6 grains so I was surprised when the PTS printed 5-shot groups within 1 inch at 100 yards in my 18- and 20-inch ARP Barrels. Note the heavy crimp on the PTS.

6.8 SPC II - 18" ARP 1:11 barrel
110gr Hornady V-MAX - 2615 fps (factory) [BC 0.370]
110gr S&B PTS - 2624 fps (factory) [BC 0.370]

Xman · Nov 15, 2015

110 grain V-MAX and S & B PTS Terminal Performance

Though these bullets are very similar, their terminal performance is like they are two different bullets as you will see below. The V-MAX is a varmint bullet, expands rapidly, and shed its core in all tests unless shot point blank which caused it to flatten out like a nickel. S&B PTS retained its core and acted like an SST. I checked copper jacket thickness and both bullets measured 0.012" to 0.016". I believe the heavy crimp on the S&B PTS acted as a mechanical lock and did a better job than a typical cannelure in retaining the lead core. The V-MAX has been tested and successfully functioned down to 1700 fps which is equivalent to 400 yards (see link below). The S&B PTS should also expand at this lower velocities based on its similar construction and ample expansion at 1900 fps. I would consider the 110 S&B PTS for medium size game and other forum members have reported good results on hogs. The V-MAX may be capable of killing a deer but there are too many better option to choose from for a medium game 6.8mm hunting bullet that have similar expansion but penetrate deeper and retain their weight better.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthre.../showthread.php?33178-6-8-SPC-Bullet-Performance&p=549068&viewfull=1#post549068

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1stmarine · Jan 8, 2016

Thanks Xman and the rest!
Based on your process I am preparing my gear to test the gunner. My wife is already complaining about the water jugs piling up in the basement. Lol.
I also used some of the examples to show some folks I hunt with overseas the bullets to make better choices.

This thread is awesome. Some might not realize the huge amount of work that goes into making this. So Many thanks Xman!!

Popeye85 · Sep 29, 2016

Fusion 90gr Spitzer Boat Tail

First off, Xman your rock. Thanks for dedicating so much of your time to a truly one stop shop of 6.8 ammunition knowledge! After roughly two hours of reading and too much info to soak in at one time I think one round may have been missed. The Federal Fusion 90gr SBT. It is new and it appears there hasn't been on post on this thread in quite some time.

Does anyone have any experience with it? If so, offer your thoughts. I plan on grabbing a box or two for this weekend and will give my .02 upon weekend completion.

Texas Hog Man · Sep 29, 2016

Popeye85 said:
First off, Xman your rock. Thanks for dedicating so much of your time to a truly one stop shop of 6.8 ammunition knowledge! After roughly two hours of reading and too much info to soak in at one time I think one round may have been missed. The Federal Fusion 90gr SBT. It is new and it appears there hasn't been on post on this thread in quite some time.

Does anyone have any experience with it? If so, offer your thoughts. I plan on grabbing a box or two for this weekend and will give my .02 upon weekend completion.

If I am correct, I was told that this is not a new bullet, rather a commercial repackaged Federal 90gr XMGD, so you can use the 90 grain Gold Dot data

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-msr/f68msr2

Xman · Sep 29, 2016

Popeye85 said:
it appears there hasn't been on post on this thread in quite some time.

I have picked up another couple projects at work and traveling too much. I actually have 5 or so bullets tested but haven't found the time to write-up the results. With hunting season starting on Saturday, I may have to accomplish it over the Christmas break.

Popeye85 · Sep 30, 2016

Texas Hog Man said:
If I am correct, I was told that this is not a new bullet, rather a commercial repackaged Federal 90gr XMGD, so you can use the 90 grain Gold Dot data

https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-msr/f68msr2

That's what I was thinking as well. Before I posted that question I went to that same area of Federal's website to see if there was anything GD related, couldn't find anything. But like you said it sure appears to be the same.

Thanks guys

Xman · Jan 2, 2017

130 gr Federal Flat Base

My apologies as its been a year since I have posted any test results. I have been testing bullets but between traveling for work and setting up a new hunting lease I haven't been able to complete the write-ups.

Back in August 2016, there were plenty of 130gr Federal pulled bullets being gobbled up by forum members. Thank Nswish for contributing some for terminal performance testing. This bullet was listed as a "fused" bullet but it is a typical lead core with a cannelure lock for core retention after impact. Because the bullet was unknown, initial concerns were how well would it expand. I did an initial test in August at 100 yards and verified it would expand unlike some 130 grain bullets designed for .270 Win velocities, e.g., the Speer Grand Slam has to be 75 yards or closer to effect expansion when shot from a 6.8mm SPC. More details on the bullet can be found in this thread.

http://68forums.com/forums/showthre...owthread.php?64241-130-Grain-quot-Fused-quot-Soft-Point-from-American-Reloading

Yesterday, I completed testing with the Alternative Bullet Trap that uses wet soaked newspapers which gives more representative results with lead-core bullets that expand more than they fragment. Because the 130 Fed FB is shorter than the 120 SST with a ballistic tip (1.005" vs 1.122"), it functions well at magazine length COALs with more case capacity. 29.0 grains of H335 is my standard load for test 130 grain bullets. You likely will be able to develop loads with higher velocity for your individual rifle.

6.8 SPC II - 18" ARP 1:11 barrel
130gr Federal FB - 2400 fps (29.0gr H335) [BC 0.35 est.]

Below are the results from terminal performance testing. The 130 Fed FB opened as expected at 100 yards. The 200-yard test, with the impact velocity below 2000 fps, was a different situation. The bullet shed a small amount of its ogive than yawed 180 degrees and penetrated tail-first through 24" of wet newspaper and lodged in the plywood backstop. Because the bullet failed to expand at 200 yards, I did not conduct a 300-yard test. Its minimum opening velocity is likely around 2100 fps.

velvetant · Jan 4, 2017

Any plans on testing the Speer 90gr tnt?

Xman · Jan 15, 2017

Cutting Edge 120gr & 130gr MTH Bullets

Cutting Edge manufactures 120-and 130-grain CNC-machined copper bullets that advertise as suitable for match, tactical, and hunting applications (MTH). From their website - "These bullets do not mushroom, but instead, fracture. After 1-2" of penetration, 3-4 petals will break off and radiate outward from the main wound channel about 2-3" creating massive trauma. They will expand down to 1600fps. The required twist rate for this bullet is 1:10" or faster." I was able to stabilize the 120gr MTH from my 18" ARP. I only tested the 130gr MTH in my .270 but should stabilize in 1:10 6.8mm barrels. Cutting Edge advertises very high BCs for these bullets. I have been testing BC of 6.8mm/.277 bullets (full report in a couple of months) and have found weight is a significant contributor to a bullets BC. It not reasonable for the 120gr MTH, which is longer than a 130gr VLD, and the 130gr MTH, which is almost as long as a 150gr VLD, to have higher BC than these heavier bullets of the similar length and profile. Applied Ballistics list more realistic BCs for the MTHs and are shown below.

6.8 SPC II - 18" ARP 1:11 barrel
120gr Cutting Edge MTH - 2554 fps (27.0gr AA2200) [BC 0.460 Advertised - 0.408 Realistic]

.270 Win - 22" 1:10 barrel
120gr Cutting Edge MTH - 2737 fps (42.0gr H4895)
130gr Cutting Edge MTH - 3220 fps (56.0gr IMR4350) [BC 0.540 Advertised - 0.444 Realistic]

Xman · Jan 15, 2017

Cutting Edge MTH Terminal Performance

I accomplished terminal performance testing at 25 and 265 yards with the water jug and phonebook bullet trap. Summary - all bullets fragmented a small amount of their tip away but the remaining slugs were too long and did not remain stable and over-penetrated - even at .270 Win velocities and faster 1:10 twist. The 120gr shot at 25 yards went through 1500 pages of phonebook, 15 magazines, and 4 inches of white paper sheets before it exited the side of the bullet trap at a 45 degree angle. Still had enough energy to go through the plastic staple board and into the berm where I could not find it. Over penetration like that shows limited energy transfer. There also wasn't much reaction from any of the water jug compared to other expanding bullets. Fragments ranged from 1.3gr to just over 5 grains. Only 5 fragments (1 out of 3) made it into the phonebook and penetrated from 100 to 550 pages. Most (10 pieces) were captured in the corrugated plastic sheet behind the water jug (deflects water slug away from the paper in the box), and the 1/4" foam core that takes an imprint of the bullet after penetrating the water jug. I believe there were numerous tiny pieces carried away in the water slug (found a 0.1gr piece in the plastic). The fragments did not travel out much radially, basically remained in the wound channel, and were too small to cause much trauma. These are precision bullets that are match quality but their performance is not consistent with an effective hunting bullet.

6.8 SPC Bullet Performance

Ammunition Attrition

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